Originally posted on The Skeptitcher Rebbe
Thursday, November 4, 2010
Link
My wife is the best. I just can't get over how damn lucky I am to have her. I know that changing your worldview from frumkeit is hard and can be very depressing, but for me so far I have been able to handle it pretty well because of her.
She is still frum and doesn't yet know that my view points on Yiddishkeit and religion in general have changed so drastically, but when I speak to her about more OTD type topics she is always very understanding and insightful. She always thinks her views through and never falls back into some of the nonsensical arguments I hear from many frummies.
Not only that but many times she comes home with her own complaints and criticisms of Yiddishkeit. They are honest criticisms and although she tries to see it from anothers perspective, if it is ridiculous she points it out and isn't afraid to challenge it. She is intelligent, thoughtful, determined, caring, understanding, nurturing, dedicated and extremly beautiful.
I am reminded of a time earlier in my life while I was beginning to become frum. It came to the point where I desperately wanted to be seperated from her since she wasn't Jewish at the time and wasn't really interested in an Orthodox conversion. It was very hard for us, and I didn't want to deal with the stress of it, especially knowing I was sinning by dating a non Jew. We ended up breaking up for a couple of months before we got back together again. I just keep wondering what would have happened had I met and married another girl, maybe FFB or something. I couldn't imagine what a mistake that would have been.
I was such a moron for even putting her through all of that hardship and for what really. I regret it yet it brought us closer in a way and now I am in a great relationship with her so I guess it wasn't all that bad.
I still am unsure how she would take the idea of me not believing anymore though. I am glad that we have a good relationship with her family though, and since we got back together after our seperation I have always made a point of making sure that family should come first, even above religion. I think that is mainly what has made it work for us really well.
Before we got back together she told me that she didn't want to be second in my life. She asked that she be set before my faith, before G-d. At the time I was very upset she would ask something like that from me. How could I put my love for G-d behind anything? Anyone? Isn't loving G-d the most important thing?
It took me some time, but after our seperation I realized that she really was very important to me. She gave me purpose, pushed me to be better, and most of all was there for me, was really there for me. Not only that but I wanted to be there for her. I wanted her to be happy. I wanted her to be safe. I came to the conclusion that I really would put her before G-d and my faith.
I think that it is vital to put your family before your faith. Otherwise you will end up putting them through so much negativity for the sake of something that really isn't so important. I have known of a man who went off the derech and left his wife and children, totally abandoned them, and for what? I have the same amount of disdain for that person as I would for a person who rejected their own children for being gay or going off the derech or whatever.
People should really get their priorities straight and know that there are people out there who you really should dedicate your life to, and as a plus they actually exist.
Posted by Skeptitcher Rebbe at 1:25 PM
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12 comments:
Yossi said...
Interesting post. I have been dealing with faith issues of my own. I have been posting at the Richard Dawkins site. Many of the people there, including Dawkins, have suggested that I "come out" to my family, reagrdless of the cost to them. I have made it clear to those people that no matter what my "faith" I will not destroy my family just to make a philosophical point.
November 4, 2010 3:05 PM
no one said...
Very insightful post
November 4, 2010 3:13 PM
Skeptitcher Rebbe said...
I can definitely see your point. It is a very delicate issue and for many atheists outside of the frum community it is kind of hard for them to understand what it is really like going OTD in the frum community.
I wouldn't necessarily take their advice unless they were in a similar situation as you are in.
I like Dawkins a lot, but sometimes I think he may go just a tad overboard. I beleive that he thinks there is nothing good about hiding your atheism from certain people, and I think he has a point in that the atheistic community in order to gain strength needs more people coming out of the closet. But there are always options to weigh and everyones situation is different and those different circumstances need to be taken into consideration.
I would say take your time. It is a big life changing decision and there is no reason you should rush into anything.
I plan on taking my time.
November 4, 2010 3:19 PM
Skeptitcher Rebbe said...
no one,
Thanks, I am glad you enjoyed it.
November 4, 2010 3:21 PM
ki sarita said...
Many people do not leave their families voluntarily when they go OTD- they are forced out for just expressing their thoughts, rejected by the people who supposedly loved them, not the other way around.
November 7, 2010 11:47 PM
Skeptitcher Rebbe said...
Ki sarita,
Oh I agree 100%. I was just explaining one situation where this is not the case. For the most part I would say that OTDers are very good people, but there a few OTDers who I wouldn't mind giving a kick in the tuchos to.
November 8, 2010 1:35 AM
Anonymous said...
Skeptitcher and Ki sarita,
I have personally witnessed both tragedies and am aware of many cases in each category. It is never pleasant, but the best cases always involve the family being supportive of the OTDer, and the OTDer being supportive of the continued religiosity of the others. I have been blessed with a best friend, chevrusa, and a full support network who are all wonderful and understanding. We are respectful and accepting of each other. I still cook for them (I know kashrus better than most of my friends), and they still invite me for Shabbos. You are lucky to have such a wonderful wife, and I hope she will be as supportive as my friends have been. And maybe I'll be lucky enough to one day find someone as amazing as her to share my life with.
November 8, 2010 2:44 AM
Baal Habos said...
After much torment, I came out to my wife. It worked out better than in my wildest dreams. She was very understanding of what I had been going through, and after 3 or 4 years, without any pushing on my part, she came around totally to my way of thinking. All I did was expose to some of the literature I had been reading, science, philosophy, bibilical criticism, etc.
But I must caution you, we had a very good relationship to begin with (married more than 25 years). I don't think everyone has such a good outcome. Unfortunately, it's way too late to change course in life, with married frum children and all. Your mileage may vary and good luck.
November 13, 2010 6:42 PM
Anonymous said...
"el panav ashalem lo."
Agnostics, atheists, rejoice. You'll have your day in court. Good luck.
How odd of God to choose the Jews.
Those who aren't ffb have incentive to return to the womb, their milieu. For those whose beliefs are based upon group think, mindless frum people, da'as toireh etc. all should know better. To reject belief based upon biblical criticism is shoddy spirituality. We are more than the sum of our parts.
If you leave the community, nobody will be shocked. But, offering encouragement to others to follow your example is not righteousness, reb.
November 16, 2010 4:35 PM
Skeptitcher Rebbe said...
Anon,
Your comment is rather confusing. I don't know why you think you know me well enough to say that no one will be shocked if I left the community. I have a feeling that many people would be shocked. Also I have no intention of leaving at this stage of my life, and it is possible I never will. Although I notice problems in the community that isn't to say that there aren't similar or additional problems outside the community.
I don't push people to follow in my footsteps. These are my own personal opinions about my situation and what I experienced. I don't think anyone should follow in my footsteps or anyone elses for that matter, they should decide for themselves what life they wish to live, and if that means being religious then I fully support that. If it means leaving religion then I fully support that as well. Life is confusing and difficult and I am not about to tell others how they should deal with it in their own personal way.
Also I don't reject belief based on biblical criticism. Biblical criticism seems to make sense given the circumstances but I don't hold it up as evidence against belief in the Torah's divinity/truth.
November 16, 2010 8:50 PM
Anonymous said...
What say ye then, reb, to what Rashi cites on "im bechukotai telechu: "lo lamad, lo 'asah etc." Does this pattern conform to your own?
December 2, 2010 2:29 PM
Skeptitcher Rebbe said...
Of those seven things enumerated by Rashi I will tell you that this pattern didn't conform to my own.
1) [First, a person] does not learn [the Torah]
I did learn Torah and still do.
2) then, he [subsequently] does not fulfill [the commandments]
I did fulfill the commandments, and still do.
3) he then despises others who do [fulfill them]
I most definitely don't despise others who fulfill the commandments, many of my best and most trusted friends fulfill the commands, including my wife.
4) then, he hates the Sages,
Totally not true.
5) prevents others from fulfilling [the commandments]
Again, totally not true and I haven't prevented anyone from fulfilling the commandments.
6) denies the [authenticity of the] commandments
This is true.
7) and [finally] denies the very omnipotence of God.
This is also true.
This is not the path I have taken to denying the authenticity of the Torah and of Yiddishkeit.
The path I took was through continual study and reasoning to decide that I no longer believed in the precepts in the Torah and Yiddishkeit. I never hated Frum Jews, still don't, and I never wish to stop Frum Jews from doing mitzvahs, if anything I help promote it in my daily life. I still keep the mitzvahs and I still learn Torah daily.
I hope that answers your question.
December 2, 2010 3:52 PM
Sunday, October 9, 2011
Series: "Uberchumradoxius" its Development and Causes Thereof
Originally posted on Divrei Acher
Tuesday, April 21, 2009
Last year (7,654 A.D.) I was at a conference and I became aware of a new area of research. The topic being researched is the phenomenon of a certain subspecies called Uberchumradoxius* which is now extinct, but has been of great interest lately in the scientific community. Two opposing camps with diametrically opposed views as to the development of Uberchumradoxius have risen in the scientific community.
One camp hypothesizes that the subspecies evolved naturally amongst the general population. They theorize that the earliest forms of Uberchumradoxius had just slight deviations from regular specimen. With time these were accentuated by natural selection and continued mutations, which were favored due to the peculiar environment that was the habitat of Uberchumradoxius.
The opposing camp ridicules this theory, pointing out the anti-natural nature of the subspecies, its hazardous tendencies towards itself and its habitat, behaviors that would absolutely preclude the selection of this subspecies even in very controlled environments. If natural selection was running its course, this latter camp claims, the first even slightly deviant specimen with tendencies resembling anything similar to Uberchumradoxius would probably not have survived into adulthood to procreate, and any offspring thereof would have certainly died in infancy. So destructive to its own survival are the behaviors of Uberchumradoxius. This is an accepted fact, and no one in the scientific community doubts the long-term repercussions to itself that the behavior of Uberchumradoxius ultimately poses.
The former camp maintains though, that in the short-term there were benefits to being a Uberchumradoxius as opposed to a normal specimen, given the peculiar environment of Uberchumradoxius. The latter camp disagrees with this vehemently, stating unequivocally that no benefits favored by natural selection can be found in the behaviors of Uberchumradoxius. So how does this camp account for the prolonged existence of Uberchumradoxius? They claim that the only possible cause could be something called "Intelligent Design". What they mean by this peculiar term is that some force with intelligence, favored the development of Uberchumradoxius. This force was able to steer Uberchumradoxius through the otherwise swift end it would have met at the hands of natural selection. The subspecies was able to produce viable offspring with even more accentuated traits that are the hallmark of Uberchumradoxius. As of yet, no satisfactory explanation has been given as to the nature and motives of this force. Speculations range from extraterrestrial experiments, to others who claim some type of long-term benefit for the general species, which learned to avoid tendencies exhibited by Uberchumradoxius because of its relatively quick demise. This camp admits that none of their speculations are sane, but they claim being forced into them by the absolute improbability of natural selection favoring Uberchumradoxius under any circumstances.
That's a synopsis of the scholarship on the topic to date.
Upcoming in the series:
Arguments pro and con presented by both sides, and snippets of conversation I overheard between proponents of the differing views at the conference.
*Origin: German Uber - above, more; Chumra is an obscure word from the now dead Aramaic, here a connotation of extreme; Latin doxius - a derivation from dox - belief, opinion
One camp hypothesizes that the subspecies evolved naturally amongst the general population. They theorize that the earliest forms of Uberchumradoxius had just slight deviations from regular specimen. With time these were accentuated by natural selection and continued mutations, which were favored due to the peculiar environment that was the habitat of Uberchumradoxius.
The opposing camp ridicules this theory, pointing out the anti-natural nature of the subspecies, its hazardous tendencies towards itself and its habitat, behaviors that would absolutely preclude the selection of this subspecies even in very controlled environments. If natural selection was running its course, this latter camp claims, the first even slightly deviant specimen with tendencies resembling anything similar to Uberchumradoxius would probably not have survived into adulthood to procreate, and any offspring thereof would have certainly died in infancy. So destructive to its own survival are the behaviors of Uberchumradoxius. This is an accepted fact, and no one in the scientific community doubts the long-term repercussions to itself that the behavior of Uberchumradoxius ultimately poses.
The former camp maintains though, that in the short-term there were benefits to being a Uberchumradoxius as opposed to a normal specimen, given the peculiar environment of Uberchumradoxius. The latter camp disagrees with this vehemently, stating unequivocally that no benefits favored by natural selection can be found in the behaviors of Uberchumradoxius. So how does this camp account for the prolonged existence of Uberchumradoxius? They claim that the only possible cause could be something called "Intelligent Design". What they mean by this peculiar term is that some force with intelligence, favored the development of Uberchumradoxius. This force was able to steer Uberchumradoxius through the otherwise swift end it would have met at the hands of natural selection. The subspecies was able to produce viable offspring with even more accentuated traits that are the hallmark of Uberchumradoxius. As of yet, no satisfactory explanation has been given as to the nature and motives of this force. Speculations range from extraterrestrial experiments, to others who claim some type of long-term benefit for the general species, which learned to avoid tendencies exhibited by Uberchumradoxius because of its relatively quick demise. This camp admits that none of their speculations are sane, but they claim being forced into them by the absolute improbability of natural selection favoring Uberchumradoxius under any circumstances.
That's a synopsis of the scholarship on the topic to date.
Upcoming in the series:
Arguments pro and con presented by both sides, and snippets of conversation I overheard between proponents of the differing views at the conference.
*Origin: German Uber - above, more; Chumra is an obscure word from the now dead Aramaic, here a connotation of extreme; Latin doxius - a derivation from dox - belief, opinion
6 comments:
A Pusheter Yid said...
You are ahead of the curve here.
Baal Habos said...
I have often wondered about this. How on earth have the Chareidim seemingly gained ascendance?
Possible answers
A) They're parasitic, dependent on the largesse of the non chareidim.
B) Natural selection takes some time. It's Malthus theory (limited resources) that triggered Darwin's thought processes. The S&^T is just beginning to hit the fan in the Chareidi world and we'll see some real change when the financial realities start forcing change in the Chareidi way of life.
Possible answers
A) They're parasitic, dependent on the largesse of the non chareidim.
B) Natural selection takes some time. It's Malthus theory (limited resources) that triggered Darwin's thought processes. The S&^T is just beginning to hit the fan in the Chareidi world and we'll see some real change when the financial realities start forcing change in the Chareidi way of life.
Acher said...
Ah BHB, so you're biased against the "Intelligent Design" proponents. You haven't even heard their arguments as to the utter impossibility of the natural evolvement of Uberchumradoxius.
But on a serious note you're right on both accounts. I think that they are parasitic, but the general community can only support sparse individuals of this kind, not a whole community. So it'll take its time like you say.
But on a serious note you're right on both accounts. I think that they are parasitic, but the general community can only support sparse individuals of this kind, not a whole community. So it'll take its time like you say.
Baal Habos said...
If it's ID, then obviously ID favors the Reform over Chareidim. ID also seems to favor the CHristians and the Muslims.
Joshua said...
Actually, the financial collapse seems to have hit the chareidi community badly. Some (especially in New York) were getting financing from less frum relatives who can no longer afford to support their relatives as much. The long-term effects of the current economic crisis may have substantial impacts on the chareidi community.
Acher said...
True, I'm aware of that. This post is mostly for a little Litzonus than anything else. The issue is quite obvious. I hope to continue on these series soon.
Honor Thy Father & Mother
Originally posted on Baal Habos
16 March 2009
I can't tell you how many times I've participated in a conversation such as the following:
BHB: So what does your son/son-in-law do?
Other: He's a Rebbe/fund raiser/still
learning/Tutoring/Learning/Shteiging.
BHB: Are you happy with that?
Other: Not really/Not at all. I really wanted him to be a lawyer/accountant/doctor but this is what he wants to do.
Other: He's a Rebbe/fund raiser/still
learning/Tutoring/Learning/Shteiging.
BHB: Are you happy with that?
Other: Not really/Not at all. I really wanted him to be a lawyer/accountant/doctor but this is what he wants to do.
Notice the Bnei Torah have no compunction in ignoring their parents wishes.
Now of course, I understand. Even from a secular perspective everyone can and should do what he or she pleases and a person shouldn't live their lives to fill their parents dreams or desires. And of course from a religious perspective there are a host of other reasons, such as Divrei Harav V'divrei Hatalmud, etc.
But what I've noticed is the Bnei Torah don't seem to even care that they're letting their parent's down.
But note the irony in this. I can't tell you how many times I've heard from Skeptics or about Skeptics, how difficult it is for them to break the news to their parents that they no longer believe. I don't recall the details clearly, but IIRC I've heard about one skeptic who plans on marrying a shiksa but intends to tell the girl he has no parents, just so that he won't bring her to his parents and they won't know he's marring outside the faith. Now, I happen to think that's a bit crazy. OK, even alot crazy. But Wow. THAT's what I call respect for and not desiring to hurt your parents. Even though it might be inevitable, almost every single skeptic who comes out of the closet has parental feelings as one of his primary concerns.
So who has real Kibud Av V'em? The Bnei Torah or the Skeptics?
And of course, that's just another manifestation of the problem with the Torah and even Torah Morality. It's really only lip-service to morality.
Because, even in morality issues, the Torah doesn't mean what it says. It means what the Rabbis want it to mean.
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What do Chazal say on Ish omo ve'oviv tirohu, ve'es shabsosai tishmoriu?
We are taught the attitude you mention in school very early on in our lives.
Monday, March 16, 2009, 9:20:11 PM
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there's a difference between disappointing your parents and completely devastating them to the point where they might never want to have anything to do with you again. the former is a little easier than the latter.
Monday, March 16, 2009, 9:30:47 PM
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I've heard about one skeptic who plans on marrying a shiksa
Giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming that you are quoting someone when you use the denigrating term "shiksa"!
Monday, March 16, 2009, 9:53:01 PM
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Halo, you're absolutely right.
Frum, what? Since when is Shikseh a denigrating term?! It's nowhere near like what's going Jackie Mason now.
Monday, March 16, 2009, 10:06:49 PM
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>We are taught the attitude you mention in school very early on in our lives.
Yep, I agree what I said is no real chiddush on the religious side.
Monday, March 16, 2009, 10:22:34 PM
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Greta post. I like to call it "frum arrogance." There's just no negotiating with extremists.
Monday, March 16, 2009, 11:13:45 PM
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BHB,
I would have to agree with Halo on this one. It's because of the attitude pt mentioned, that OJ parent have learned to accept it. But sadly it doesn't make it any easier later in life when their kids struggle to make a living.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 12:11:15 AM
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BHB,
Did you take a look in Kugel's book for "Es La'Asos L'Hashem"?
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 12:31:39 AM
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I'm not sure if you're thinking of someone else, but I might have told you about the guy who wasn't going to tell his parents, but if it was me, you're mixing it up a bit. He wasn't actually proposing that because he was in a relationship with someone and was faced with the situation. He simply said that if he was faced with that kind of situation, that's what he would consider doing. Doesn't actually change your point, but just thought I'd clarify, in case it was the story I had told you which you were referring to.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 2:04:09 AM
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Mark, I read his book, but I don't recall the reference.
Hedyot, yes, it was you that I heard the story from, and as I said in the post, the details were a bit hazy.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 7:29:36 AM
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lets see - your kids spend 10 hours a day in a day school - and whether its mixed or not, their limudaie kodesh teachers are mostly chareidi - hammering this attitude of talmud torah k'neged kulam for 10 years! They come home and eat dinner and hang out a bit, go to shul with their parents on shabbos - and then get sent off to israel - again with the charedi teachers hammering this attitude into them - and we are surprised by their decisions when they are older?
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 8:37:29 AM
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>and we are surprised by their decisions when they are older?
Not at all. I understand the decision. It's the emotion behind the decision, or lack of it as to how the parents will care, that I'm referring to. The lack of angst, shall we say, on the part of Yeshiva boys.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 8:41:30 AM
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There's a big difference between the yeshiva guy and the skeptic. The parents of the yeshiva guy, while they might prefer that he have a profession, usually see both a career and learning as valid options. They may prefer one over the other, (perhaps strongly), but both are valid ways of life. The skeptic, on the other hand, is presenting his parents with a way of life that they see as invalid and that repudates everything they have taught their child. The second is clearly much worse.
There is also "talmud torah keneged kulam" which is usually interpreted as learning is the point of existance, everything else is a waste of time (bittul torah), is done so that others may learn, or for nebachs who can't learn.
And finally, Kibad av was Eisav's middah, so it can't really be worth much, right?
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 9:24:21 AM
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>And finally, Kibad av was Eisav's middah, so it can't really be worth much, right?
LOL. Gut Gezokt. There's an Upshlug for everything.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 9:49:23 AM
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Sorry for side tracking a little, but the schmooze in all honesty should go like this:
BHB: So what does your son/son-in-law do?
Other: He's a Rebbe/fund raiser/still
learning/Tutoring/Learning/Shteiging.
BHB: Are you happy with that?
Other: Not really/Not at all. I really wanted him to be a lawyer/accountant/doctor but I didn't give him the education he would have needed for that, and he is B"H doing the same to his children, so he cannot have too much ta'anes on me.
>... but I didn't give him the education he would have needed for that, and he is B"H doing the same to his children, so he cannot have too much ta'anes on me.
Not in my Baalebattaish circles. Most kids have an adequate education to go to Grad school. The kids choose to sit and learn instead of work. On the contrary, they can have no taanos to us, but their own children can certainly have Taanos. My kids are CHOOSING to step back into the ghetto, leaving the grandchildren without the choice and tools their parents were graced with.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 11:22:08 AM
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So I guess, I am writing for your einklach.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 11:34:07 AM
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BHB,
He doesn't mention it, he just quotes the Posuk and Gemarah on it on a separate page before beginning the book. If you have it take a look, otherwise forget it, it's not that important.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 12:31:50 PM
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>My kids are CHOOSING to step back into the ghetto, leaving the grandchildren without the choice and tools their parents were graced with.
I don't know how you take that. One thing is all the rest of it, but self destruction is hard to witness when happening to one's family.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 12:33:32 PM
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And on the general point of your post, I have to agree with a previous commenter that there is a difference between disappointing one's parents, and completely devastating them. That said, you still have a point. Personally, I tried as I hard as I could to keep my new "Meshugas" away from my father, and he found out after a while, when confronting me directly and I had no choice but to spill the beans. And even then, I could have wiggled out of it had I wanted and told him what he wanted to hear, but I didn't because I couldn't lie to him. In short there was no great Tzidkus going on here, but my primary concern was not letting my father down. So you're correct there.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 12:40:13 PM
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Mark, I don;t have that Sefer anymore. :)
>I don't know how you take that. One thing is all the rest of it, but self destruction is hard to witness when happening to one's family.
Tsuros Rabim - Chatzi Nechama.
> And on the general point of your post, I have to agree with a previous commenter that there is a difference between disappointing one's parents, and completely devastating them.
Sure, I agree with him too!
>That said, you still have a point.
I agree with that too!
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 1:00:52 PM
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Have you been following XGHs place lately. He has gone completely bonkers, especially with his latest post (the first few paragraphs). I intend to write something there, but I don't have the Koach to get into a punching match with him, though I will try to come up with one coherent comment and let the rest of you judge.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 1:09:58 PM
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Im not sure, but since when does Kibud av v'em mean finding a career that they want? What if instead of learning and being a rabbi, this individual went on to become a mechanic or botonist, would you still claim he is being disrespectful of his parents? Me thinks you are only picking here because he went on to being a rabbi and not a "normal" job.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 1:18:46 PM
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MArk, I haven;t been following GH much, too involved in OP philosphy and I have a hard time coming to grips with that.
Holy, can't you guys read? As I've said a few times, it's the ATTITUDE that I object too, not the actual career difference. No one should pick a career to satisfy their parents, and I thought I spelled that out.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 1:24:08 PM
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What attitude?
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 1:27:09 PM
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>What attitude?
As I said in the post
"But what I've noticed is the Bnei Torah don't seem to even care that they're letting their parent's down."
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 1:54:15 PM
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HH, It's possible you won't relate because you don't know what Yeshivish OJ culture is like.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 1:58:07 PM
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some charedi people even look down at their parents because they think their parents lack yiras shamayim.
Off topic - I still love XGH's blog after all these years. He brings humor and passion to what ever side he's on (unless he's depressed)
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 2:03:26 PM
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> some charedi people even look down at their parents because they think their parents lack yiras shamayim.
Oy vey. I never really thought of it that way, but it's probably true.
>Off topic - I still love XGH's blog after all these years. He brings humor and passion to what ever side he's on (unless he's depressed)
He's still the King. I just can't relate to a lot of that "intelleOrthopraxis". Just come out and say it "I'm stuck".
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 2:14:36 PM
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>Just come out and say it "I'm stuck".
I think it's more complicated than that. I think he really feels value in it. He doesn't have as negative attitude as you do. That may have to do with the fact that he's LWMO
> think he really feels value in it.
I do too.
>He doesn't have as negative attitude as you do.
That is very true
> That may have to do with the fact that he's LWMO
Probably
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 2:26:54 PM
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> think he really feels value in it.
>I do too.
you think frumkeit has value over a secular lifestyle? If so, why would you say you're stuck?
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 2:35:37 PM
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Well, I would like to know if its true they "don't care" about disappointing their parents. The problem here is the parents that put them in a spot that they can actually worry about making an honest career decision without the parents over their necks.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 2:37:13 PM
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>you think frumkeit has value over a secular lifestyle? If so, why would you say you're stuck?
I'm not saying in totality it has greater value than the secular system. But it certainly has value. And I think if XGH thinks it does have greater value, it's because he's stuck. It's another form of Cognitive Dissonance.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 2:52:17 PM
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>The problem here is the parents that put them in a spot that they can actually worry about making an honest career decision without the parents over their necks.
Can you rephrase? Or did you too have a yeshiva education? ;)
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 2:53:35 PM
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"Bnei Torah don't seem to care that they're letting their parents down"
Some do, some don't. Do you think they're relatively less considerate of their parents' feelings than teens who go OTD? Or non-Jews? or reform teens? I'm all for well-aimed generalizations but this one's pretty shaky. I'll grant that there's that instilled attitude that they're obeying a Higher Power, and so their poor unenlightened parents' feelings are irrelevant. But not always---far more often, the parents themselves give mixed signals. Many of these parents are quite wimpy &/or passive/aggressive--they kvetch to others that they're unhappy w/their kids' choices, but did they ever clearly, unequivocally voice their feelings to the child in question? Better yet, did they declare that they have no intention of supporting that lifestyle? Almost never. Few frum parents have the guts to go against the prevailing winds within frum society on even the most trivial matters; no one wants to be less frum than the "Cohens".
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 3:11:21 PM
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...And even when parents do whine about it, they typically say, "If I were a millionaire and could afford to support all my kids in learning for life, I'd love to, but unfortunately I'm not able..."
What a cop-out! Pure PC drivel. Little Moishy Kollelboy is statistically very unlikely to be that one-in-a-thousand someone who actually learns 95% of their 10 hours worth of siddorim (or even 75%)---so Why? WHY would a parent "love" for their kid to live what is effectively a very undemanding, unstructured, unproductive (not to say lazy) existence, even if leavened with a few hours of real learning?! It's mindless, but there you go. For every kids these days sitting and learning, there's at least one parent whining ineffectually about expenses--(the trip to Israel! the $60G wedding! new YomTov outfits for the grandkids! the sterling esrog-box for a bar mitzvah gift!)---while telling everyone they're kid's learning in this or that yeshiva, as if that were in itself a sign of tremendous intellectual accomplishment.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 3:28:55 PM
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JS, Just as I'm not talking about teens who are becoming Rebbeim, I'm not talking about OTD teens who are dropping out of High School. I'm talking about Skeptic young adults. As a rule, they seem to be very considerate of their parents' feelings, assuming they had a good relationship with them all along. And I think you'd be surprized at how many parents are quite vocal with their childrens' choices. Yet, I think you are alluding to a valid point, similiar to that raised by others, namely that sitting in learning is not as painful to parents as apostacy is. When commiserating amongst ourselves, the parents often say, better too frum than not frum enough. So, you're probably right, the attitude does trickle down to the kids. Yet, I don't see any sense of angst on the part of these Bnai Torah. Of course, that's only my personal anectodal experience.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 3:33:08 PM
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>And I think if XGH thinks it does have greater value, it's because he's stuck. It's another form of Cognitive Dissonance.
if you say so, Doctor
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 3:35:23 PM
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>...And even when parents do whine about it, they typically say, "If I were a millionaire and could afford to support all my kids in learning for life, I'd love to, but unfortunately I'm not able..."
That is very true, many equivocate that way. I usually come out and say it "I don't believe in it except for yechidim"
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 3:36:18 PM
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> >And I think if XGH thinks it does have greater value, it's because he's stuck. It's another form of Cognitive Dissonance.
>if you say so, Doctor
I'll ask him. And CC you.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 3:37:50 PM
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>Can you rephrase? Or did you too have a yeshiva education?
Sorry. I am simply saying, why should any parent put their child on spot in that the child, will have to feel uncomfortable when he decides NOT to find job in what their parents expected. The fact that parents have career expectations (at least in this case) is the problem, not with the child being honest about a different field that excites them more.
>Sorry. I am simply saying, why should any parent put their child on spot in that the child, will have to feel uncomfortable when he decides NOT to find job in what their parents expected. The fact that parents have career expectations (at least in this case) is the problem, not with the child being honest about a different field that excites them more.
Still unclear (re-read it and see if you left something out), but I think I get your drift.
A) I am simply saying, why should any parent put their child on spot in that the child, will have to feel uncomfortable when he decides to live a normal secular life as lived my hundreds of millions of Americans. The fact that parents have religious expectations (at least in this case) is the problem, not with the child being honest about a different was of life that excites them more
B) how, as I've said many times, it's not the actual shift. I can ‘t really blame the Bnei Torah for doing as they've been brainwashed. I am ticked off by the lack of caring as to how the parents feel.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 5:27:50 PM
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Well, it looks like you understood me fine, except you put in religion, where I was talking about this specific instant of career.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 6:33:34 PM
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>Well, it looks like you understood me fine, except you put in religion, where I was talking about this specific instant of career.
I'm comparing the letdown of not meeting expectations or desires, makes no difference in what.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 7:25:59 PM
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Of course it does. One is leaving your identiy and heritage (from the perspective of the parents), the other is a job.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 8:04:37 PM
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Since when is Shikseh a denigrating term?!
Seriously? Tell me that you're not aware of its derivation from sheketz, abomination?
The word is used way too loosely, but even when used in a joking manner it often has a denigrating tone. People make excuses for the word the same way they make excuses for "shvartze", which doesn't have an objectionable origin but is almost always used as a term of disdain.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 10:18:36 PM
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> People make excuses for the word the same way they make excuses for "shvartze", which doesn't have an objectionable origin but is almost always used as a term of disdain.
Of course, I'm aware of the origin. But there you have it, it's not the derivation that counts, it's the usage. I disdain the 'Shva---" word, but I have no compunction with using the Shikseh word. I erred in my sidebar poll by including the Shikze to mir remark, because people may have chosen that segment just to get the joke across. So discounting that category, the numbers don't differ much, so there's "yesh al me lismoch".
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 10:49:35 PM
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>because people may have chosen that segment just to get the joke across.
Very perceptive. I can see you won't be working for any polling organizations any time soon though.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 11:08:46 PM
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I'm a 40 something BT who became frum around the age of 15. To this day I'm sure my parents would prefer I had chosen a non-Orthodox life. They think I made my life too hard (they happen to be right). Of course, they brought me up to be traditional Conservative, so why should they be upset that I crossed the line to MO?
But my point is that it's my life, and I made my choice. To this day I have angst about "disappointing" my parents. Since I'm confident I made the best choice for me, I'm not sure what's so great about having the angst.
Wednesday, March 18, 2009, 9:20:57 AM
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sorry, not on your side on this one. kids should not feel guilty by making a lifestyle choice that wasn't quite what their parents wanted. and the parents should get over it. (and no, by making a particular lifestyle choice, we didn't MAKE our parents want to disown us. They are accountable for their own decisions just as well as we are.) that goes for the frum as well as the fry.
i happen to believe that when OTD's take such great pains to hide things from their parents, it's not out of love, but fear.
Thursday, March 19, 2009, 8:00:55 AM
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>that goes for the frum as well as the fry.
Frei (free in German) not fry
>i happen to believe that when OTD's take such great pains to hide things from their parents, it's not out of love, but fear.
I'd say it is a little of both
Thursday, March 19, 2009, 10:17:05 AM
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>happen to believe that when OTD's take such great pains to hide things from their parents, it's not out of love, but fear.
fear of what? Disappointing their parents?
Thursday, March 19, 2009, 12:36:31 PM
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>Not really/Not at all. I really wanted him to be a lawyer/accountant/doctor but this is what he wants to do.
This is not what he wants to do. The Yeshiva has taken over his mind and convinced HIM that this is what he wants to do. The Yeshiva world has created a bunch of ROBOTS . Unthinking ROBOTS who can only say what they Yeshiva tells them to say..... Avi
Thursday, March 19, 2009, 1:38:42 PM
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Tesyaa.
>They think I made my life too hard (they happen to be right).
Are you saying you regret it?
> Since I'm confident I made the best choice for me, I'm not sure what's so great about having the angst.
See my comment below to Kisarita
> kids should not feel guilty by making a lifestyle choice that wasn't quite what their parents wanted. and the parents should get over it.
Kisarita, I'll try to say it one more time. Everyone should feel to make their own choices. And they shouldn't feel guilty about it. It's not that they're doing anything wrong. But they should feel bad for disappointing. Thais is NOT the same as guilt.
BTW, such nice namaes, Tesyaa & Kisarita.
>i happen to believe that when OTD's take such great pains to hide things from their parents, it's not out of love, but fear.
I second anon's question, fear of what? Fear of how their parents will take it! Which is exactly my point.
>I'd say it is a little of both
What are you afreaid of?
What are you afreaid of?**************************************
That I made the wrong choice.,,,Avi
Friday, March 20, 2009, 3:01:29 PM
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That's why you're not telling your Mommy?
Friday, March 20, 2009, 3:28:34 PM
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>What are you afreaid of?
I wasn't referring to myself per se. But someone who is still getting supported by their parents may fear getting cut off. As far as I'm concerned I'd rather not go through the whole drama for no good reason. If I could live my life more or less as I want and not hurt them, then that is the best of both worlds
Friday, March 20, 2009, 5:23:23 PM
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by the way, the same applies for me as far as my career is concerned. I may want to quit and live "off the land" for a while. but part of what stops me is society's and my parents wishes. I'm not saying it's the only reason, but it is a factor.
Friday, March 20, 2009, 5:28:30 PM
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I just want to point out to tesyaa and kisarita that it's not the same, going OTD and becoming a BT. When you go BT, you're only letting down your parents, you're not quite devastating them. Free choice is a value that is appreciated in secular culture, but hardly in the frum one. Also, to a frum parent it's often the end of the world if their kid goes OTD because they have all kinds of absolutist beliefs including the kid will spend an eternity in hell for the decision and countless other similar hangups which are hardly relevant to those who go BT.
Saturday, March 21, 2009, 8:50:05 AM
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Also, to a frum parent it's often the end of the world if their kid goes OTD because they have all kinds of absolutist beliefs including the kid will spend an eternity in hell for the decision and countless other similar hangups which are hardly relevant to those who go BT.
offthederech | Homepage | 03.21.09 - 8:55 am | #************************************** Sorry, but that is not always the case. If you come from a frum family as I do and you go OTD there are plenty of people to judge you and feel sorry for you including your own kids. Do you have any idea how thorny an issue it is when your grandchildren ask you a question and you really are afraid to answer it. All I can do is say ask your father. And thjen the kid thinks, what is my grandfather hiding from me and why.....Avi
Monday, March 23, 2009, 1:40:20 PM
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I would disagree with you and say that there are people on both sides of the tracks. You think that all the people learning and letting down their parents are only the ones that learn, but the ones that marry shiksa are so worried about their parents? I know several people that married shiksas and didn't care about what their parents thought at all and didn't care what it would do. They wanted to live their lives. Also, I know several people that wanted to learn the rest of their life and either didn't or figured out a way that would be pleasing to their parents/in-laws. So, although I agree there are a lot of people that learn all day that are living off their parents and disappointing them, there are also people that marry shiksas that care nothing about their parents opinion and don't even try to convert and make some kind of compromise or even think about what they are doing to their parents.
Saturday, April 25, 2009, 10:34:59 PM
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GH, on what grounds do you base your claims that kids who decide to learn don't feel any regret about disappointing their parents?
Also:
-> ...And even when parents do whine about it, they typically say, "If I were a millionaire and could afford to support all my kids in learning for life, I'd love to, but unfortunately I'm not able..."
What a cop-out! Pure PC drivel. Little Moishy Kollelboy is statistically very unlikely to be that one-in-a-thousand someone who actually learns 95% of their 10 hours worth of siddorim (or even 75%)---so Why? WHY would a parent "love" for their kid to live what is effectively a very undemanding, unstructured, unproductive (not to say lazy) existence, even if leavened with a few hours of real learning?! It's mindless, but there you go.
That's wrong. I agree that it's totally not for everybody, but for those for whom it's appropriate, Kollel is very productive. We (Orthodox Jews) believe that limud Torah keeps the world going. Also, I know plenty of Kollel guys (both in YU and in other yeshios), and I can assure you that the ones I know all keep AT LEAST 95% of their sedorim. I think it is insulting of you to assume that 9/10 of Kollel guys don't keep their sedorim.
Let me state that I don't approve of people going to Kollel by leaching off their parents who can't afford it. I know a couple in my neighborhood who skimp on necessities in order to support their son, and I think it's absolutely despicable of the son to put his parents in that situation. But for the right person in the right circumstance, it's great.
Saturday, April 25, 2009, 11:26:22 PM
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Fear of what?
-Fear of conflict
-Fear of being cut off
-fear of not being able to stick with our decision
-irrational existential fear of upsetting the status quo
Sunday, April 26, 2009, 1:08:52 PM
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My farther is a horrible man and if I defend myself in anyway from his verbal attacks he says 'you're going straight to hell because you don't have any respect for me' what should I do
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