Originally posted on Baal Habos
28 March 2009
It just came to me suddenly as I was contemplating the produce section in my local supermarket.
How did Rabbinic Judaism, ever get off the ground on the first place?
Imagine, if you will. Chaim Yankel comes home from the First Congregation Anshe Yavneh Shul around 10:30 Shabbos morning in the year 101 AD.
"Shprintze, I'm home.."
"You're so late!"
"Well," he said, "we had a new Rav in shul today, and he made us repeat the shmoneh Esrai"
"You're kidding. What for?"
"He called it chazoras Hashatz".
"Hmmm", she says as she re-arranges the table.
"You can't do that"
"Why not?"
"That's Muktzeh!"
"What's that?"
"Err, never mind..."
She rushes to kiss him.
"Stop!"
"What's the matter?"
"You're a Niddah!"
What?
"You're a Niddah."
"No I'm not. I'm a Zavah."
"Not anymore you ain't. And we now have Harchakos."
"You're so late!"
"Well," he said, "we had a new Rav in shul today, and he made us repeat the shmoneh Esrai"
"You're kidding. What for?"
"He called it chazoras Hashatz".
"Hmmm", she says as she re-arranges the table.
"You can't do that"
"Why not?"
"That's Muktzeh!"
"What's that?"
"Err, never mind..."
She rushes to kiss him.
"Stop!"
"What's the matter?"
"You're a Niddah!"
What?
"You're a Niddah."
"No I'm not. I'm a Zavah."
"Not anymore you ain't. And we now have Harchakos."
The next day, Chaim Yankel, whose kids were all married off, found himself signing up at the "Second Congregation Anshe Yavneh".
The Reish Gelusah is not getting to first base with his mispalelim, no matter what kind of believers they are. It's my experience that even the believers are skeptics to new concepts, gezeiros, etc.
But! The Resh Gelusa will have success in introducing this "stuff" to the kinderlach in yeshiva.
It is the kinderlach who look at the bowl of fruit and refuse to eat the strawberries.
===================================================
Apikores
It's true, they get you by using the kids. My sister came home from cheder one day and said we have to start keeping cholov yisroel, and I never saw an oreo again.
It's true, they get you by using the kids. My sister came home from cheder one day and said we have to start keeping cholov yisroel, and I never saw an oreo again.
Sunday, March 29, 2009, 1:27:42 AM
– Like – Reply
Culture and dogma evolve in small incremental steps. I bet your zeideh didn't eat the kezeisim matzoh in two minutes "betoch kedi achilas prass".
Halachic Judaism of old, must have been radically different to what it is today. Chazal clearly redefined the fundamentals within Halacha, often due to the restrictions imposed upon them by their rulers. The way we deal with converts as a consequence of the ban by Constantine preventing the Jews from proselytising shows this. (The need for a ban seems to indicate that we used to proselytise.) As does the Talmud's attempt to render almost meaningless any biblical command for capital punishment. The practice was common in Biblical times, and later.
However it seems that they did away with the theoretical death penalty, because they had lost jurisdiction over it, when the Romans took over, hundreds of years before.
Subsequently, after Chazal, the reformation process became less bold, and has turned into a process of refinery rather than reform. Each generation by asking new questions, pin pointing the contradictions within law, and issuing new revised rulings based upon the new answers and distinctions. This coupled with, the codification process, the organisation of the chaotic quagmire of Talmudic law , into a code of law, a process set in motion by the Geonim as early as 1200 years ago, is how the evolution of Jewish Law has been progressing steadily.
However, the challenges any budding Rabbi, a millennia ago would have faced in his quest to become a true scholar, would have been monumental prior to the printing press. The refinement of Halacha was at first, a painfully slow process. Come along the printing press, that process was vastly accelerated. Then even more so by mass literacy, and the postal system.
Sunday, March 29, 2009, 9:44:41 AM
– Like – Reply
>It is the kinderlach who look at the bowl of fruit and refuse to eat the strawberries.
How true that is, it's also true of adults who are like Kinderlach.
As for your poll, I didn't vote on it because you didn't give a choice with a high enough percentage. Not that I really think that it is higher than 3%, but I think it's definitely a possibility.
Sunday, March 29, 2009, 9:57:15 AM
– Like – Reply
It's not just kosher... any system that is interested in keeping the body pure goes from chumrah to chumrah. I have been talking to people who practice Chinese medicine and you won't believe what they think is dangerous. If you say you microwave they give you a look like " why even bother living if you are such an idiot." Meat they hold to be worse than smoking. Microwaving frozen chulent wrapped in plastic...you might as well eat cardboard...in fact cardboard is considered much healthier.
Sunday, March 29, 2009, 1:30:04 PM
– Like – Reply
>Subsequently, after Chazal, the reformation process became less bold, and has turned into a process of refinery rather than reform.
I think my point is a valid one. Other than Baalei Tshuvah, I can't envision how even people of strong faith were mekabel upon themselves such innovations as Harchakos or Muktsa. It's not even like Strawberries or Internet accces. I can see a ban on that taking place under the guise that our forbears would have done the same had the Internet sprung up 1,000 years ago or that bugs were supposedly around 1,000 years ago. But imagine your Rav comes home and says from now on, as a Gezeira, Photography is prohibited. How would that take root? Only in the new generation.
Sunday, March 29, 2009, 2:18:05 PM
– Like – Reply
"How did Rabbinic Judaism, ever get off the ground on the first place?
"
Slowly. Though adults will go along with an awful lot of things if an authority tells them to. There are many people who now don't eat strawberries. Or who filter their water. In a hundred years strawberries will be trief. In a thousand kosher water will be sold all over the world, and the only ones who will remember it started in New York with a few zealots will be theological historians and those on the fringes of frumkeit. These skeptics will be told that those who held tapwater was kosher were minority opinion, or that what they said is being misinterpreted. After all, who do they think they are, suggesting that an achron could be mistaken?
Sunday, March 29, 2009, 2:39:33 PM
– Like – Reply
G*3, yes, my comment at 3:23 today. Strawberries are different.
Sunday, March 29, 2009, 2:50:39 PM
– Like – Reply
I see your point. I'm not so sure, though, that people would reject even a large change. The trick would be to couch it in familiar terms. Take your photography example. It could be argued that displaying pictures of women is untznius. (Note the absence of pictures of women from the Yated, or the incident with the shietel store last year.) If it is innapropriate to display these pictures, it may be inaproptiate to take the pictures because they might be seen. in a few decades taking pictures of women is assur.
Now, if one cannot take pictures of women, what about young girls? Best to be machmir and avoid that. The jump to assuring photographs of men is a bit harder, but tznius in theory applies to men as much as women, and once it is established that, for women, allowing someone to take your picture is untznius, a man who is very careful with halacha will also not allow his picture to be taken. This will eventually spread to the general population, and in a few centuries it will be forgotten that frum Jews ever allowed their picture to be taken.
Paintings and engravings of frum events made in the 17th and 18th centuries often show womens' elbows and collarbones. Many even show cleavage. Most frum people are unaware of this, and if they come across such pictures assume that these people were on the fringes of frum society.
Sunday, March 29, 2009, 4:46:23 PM
– Like – Reply
> in a few decades taking pictures of women is assur.
Right, it's a generational thing.
Sunday, March 29, 2009, 11:44:44 PM
– Like – Reply
> in a few decades taking pictures of women is assur.
It's already frowned upon judging by the famous picture of the Chofetz Chaim's family were the two women were digitally removed.
Monday, March 30, 2009, 12:11:30 AM
– Like – Reply
"The Reish Gelusah is not getting to first base with his mispalelim, no matter what kind of believers they are."
I don't think many new rules were announced one day out of the blue. Rather, most of them probably evolved over time (and space), in different communities and under different conditions. By the time the rule was officially adopted most people were familiar with it and some even might have kept it for generations prior.
(That is not the way it would necessarily be written centuries later when it was officially recorded in written form: So-and-so decreed this is Muktzah. But I think it likely that most religious concepts evolved and were not abruptly introduced by an authority figure.)
Monday, March 30, 2009, 11:26:01 AM
– Like – Reply
David Kraemer delivered a lecture at the JTS last year on "Jewish Eating and Jewish Identity". He argued that a lot of these chumras evolved over time, and their effect --- if not their explicit purposes --- was not only to separate Jews from non-Jews, but also Jews from other Jews. That is, when there is an ideological division in the Jewish community, one group imposes additional restrictions on food, and that serves as a boundary between "us" and "them".
I believe he also has a book out on the same topic.
I can't evaluate the historical argument, but it seems to make sense at least in some cases.
Monday, March 30, 2009, 12:48:57 PM
– Like – Reply
Monday, March 30, 2009, 12:49:42 PM
– Like – Reply
Here is an old post of mine talking about a theory by R' Elman for the niddah stringencies.
>Many even show cleavage.
Yes, whether in times of boom or... bust
Monday, March 30, 2009, 5:33:59 PM
– Like – Reply
Letz, come on you can do better than that.
>I don't think many new rules were announced one day out of the blue...
It's difficult to envision someone accepting upon himself Harchkos or Muktsah if he did not believe it was an old established custom.
> He argued that a lot of these chumras evolved over time
Ditto to above.
> That is, when there is an ideological division in the Jewish community, one group imposes additional restrictions on food, and that serves as a boundary between "us" and "them".
I find that fascinating!
> Here's a link to a podcast of his lecture:
I'll try to check that out.
> Here is an old post of mine talking about a theory by R' Elman for the niddah stringencies.
I remember that. Doesn't contradict what I'm saying.
Monday, March 30, 2009, 7:36:32 PM
– Like – Reply
I don't believe it ever "got off the ground." It is something complex that happened way before what we call "chazal." I believe Halivni has it right when he says by the time the Jews returned from Persia there was already a need for "interpretation" in order for them to actually keep the law. This in affect is what laid the foundation for what we call "rabbinic judaism"
Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 1:33:04 PM
– Like – Reply
> Right, it's a generational thing.
Okay, you're right, it definitly takes a few generations for this kind of thing to take hold. My point was more that it isn't only the children who buy into these things, but the adults too. Its just that an adult will only move to the right so much. A child takes his parents' practices as the baseline, and as an adult will move a little more to the right. His child will then take those practices as a baseline, and then move a little...
So basicly you're right, but the adults are definitly buying into the chumras.
No comments:
Post a Comment
Feel free to comment on re-posted posts. Comment threads are often as informative and interesting as the body of a post, and half the point of this blog is to bring old posts from around the blogosphere up for discussion again. A word of warning: while dissenting opinions and respectful debate is welcome and encouraged, trolls will not be tolerated. I will delete all trollish comments and responses.