tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-63333523387235380122024-03-04T23:05:57.238-08:00The Wisdom of the (Blogo)SpheresG*3http://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6333352338723538012.post-89155289964853265482011-12-08T20:18:00.002-08:002011-12-08T20:18:57.944-08:00How do Orthodox Jews explain the Exodus?Originally posted on The Skeptitcher Rebbe<br />
Tuesday, October 5, 2010<br />
<a href="http://skeptitcherrebbe.blogspot.com/2010/10/how-do-orthodox-jews-explain-exodus.html">Link</a><br />
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One of the first things I came across that began my path towards doubt was the population problem of the exodus. The Torah tells us that 600,000 fighting men left Egypt during the exodus, which would amount to about 2 to 3 million people in total. What is the problem with this scenario? Egypt at the time only had about 2 - 3 million people in total! This would have meant that all of Egypt was practically gone at the time of the exodus, yet with all of the well documented history we have from Egypt and the surrounding nations at that time, not one thing mentions this, nor does it indicate that anything changed at all.<br />
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But it gets even better, apparently our tradition tells us that it was only 1/5, others say 1/50 and others say 1/500 of the Israelites left Egypt. So conservatively using the 2 million estimation that right before the exodus there were 10,000,000 or 100,000,000 or even 1,000,000,000 Israelites living in Egypt. Now if that isn't totally absurd I don't know what is.<br />
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Has any Jewish scholar addressed this issue? Do frum Jews simply blind themselves to this glaring problem? I know that I did for a long time, before I finally came to terms with its implications. <br />
Posted by Skeptitcher Rebbe at 9:34 PM <br />
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22 comments: <br />
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Lisa said... <br />
Well, there are a few things:<br />
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1) How do you know that Egypt at the time had about 2-3 million people? How much of that is based on conjecture from the average settlement in Egypt at the time (and we'll get to what "at the time" means in a bit), and how many settlements in Goshen (eastern Delta) were included in the survey?<br />
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2) When are you looking in Egyptian history? Are you looking at the 18th or 19th Dynasties? The two strongest dynasties in all of Egyptian history? Or are you looking at the end of the 6th Dynasty, as you ought?<br />
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http://www.starways.net/lisa/essays/exodus.html<br />
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3) Midrash is midrash. You can't use a literal reading of a midrash in that way. You might as well ask how Pharaoh's daughter got her magical stretching powers. חמושים means armed. That's simple pshat.<br />
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As far as your last question, yes, most Jewish scholars just ignore the issue. But in part, that's because the various disciplines of ancient near east history (Assyriology, Egyptology, Archaeology, etc.) take a lot of time to master. And most secondary sources in the field make assumptions that Orthodox Jews disagree with. Since they aren't qualified to discuss these assumptions, let alone challenge them, they step back and say either "Naarischkeit -- it's obviously prejudiced against us" or "It will eventually be explained, even if we don't understand it now." The first of those is obviously nothing more than intellectual bankruptcy. The second isn't.<br />
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I did some graduate work in Assyriology at Hebrew U back in the late 80s. And I can tell you that much of what's touted as a scholarly consensus is only really the consensus of a handful of scholars whose views can't easily be challenged if you want to continue on in the field. And there are many assumptions made in the field that pre-exist the field itself and are simply never seriously addressed. <br />
October 6, 2010 12:34 PM <br />
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Skeptitcher Rebbe said... <br />
Lisa,<br />
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First off thanks for the comments, I really appreciate them. As to your points:<br />
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1) I am basing this off of the work of Archeologists. I will get back to you on your points once I try to find out exactly how this figure was determined but I think you would have to argue that the population was vastly different than what has been determined which sounds like it would be a stretch.<br />
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2) To argue that the exodus occured during the 6th dynasty sounds pretty ridiculous. The 6th dynasty lasted from about 2345-2181 CE. Looking at Melachim I 6:1 "And it was in the four hundred and eightieth year after the departure of the children of Israel from Egypt, in the fourth year, in the month Ziv, which (is) the second month of Solomon's reign over Israel, that he did (begin to) build the house of the Lord." This tells us that the building of the first Temple under Shlomo HaMelech was 480 years after the exodus. Even using the latest date of the 6th Dynasty 2181 CE this would mean that the building of the first Temple would have occured at around 1701 CE! Do you think that is a reasonable? Based on Melachim the earliest the Exodus could have been would be around 1500s CE. Well after the 6th Dynasty.<br />
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3)Good point.<br />
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Also the practical implications of a group of 2.5 million Jews is very problematic as well. <br />
October 6, 2010 4:38 PM <br />
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Lisa said... <br />
SR,<br />
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A group of 2.5 million Jews is problematic in the sense that overseeing them is like herding cats.<br />
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As far as the date of the 6th dynasty is concerned, that's one of the assumptions I'm referring to. Did you know that the approximate date for the end of the Bronze Age and beginning of the Iron Age is based on a misreading of a biblical verse? That mistake predates modern archaeology as well.<br />
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You know I Sam 13:9, right? It says אין חרש בישראל and goes on to say that the Jews had to go to the Philistines to get their tools sharpened. And the King James translation gives that Hebrew as "There was no smith in Israel", which is commonly assumed to refer to a blacksmith. The division of human history into Stone and Bronze and Iron ages is as old as ancient Greece, so someone looked at this verse and concluded that they'd found the dividing line between the Bronze and Iron Ages in Israel, right? Because the Philistines had iron, and the Israelites didn't.<br />
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The problem, obviously, is that חרש doesn't mean blacksmith. A חרש ברזל is. But the verse doesn't say that. A חרש is anyone who takes a raw material and turns it into something refined. A חרש אבן is a stonesmith. A חרש זכוכית, if the term ever appeared, would be a glazier.<br />
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But the assumption was that the Iron Age started around the time of Saul. At least in Israel. And the chronologies of Egypt and Mesopotamia have coalesced around that. Egyptian kings and dynasties were once considered to be consecutive in all cases. As a result, Egyptologists put the start of the 1st Dynasty at about 6000 BCE. Eventually, they proposed overlapping dynasties and reigns in order to bring it down to where it is now, at about 3100 BCE. Largely (though not entirely) because of the Bronze/Iron thing.<br />
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But if you look at the archaeological history of the land without dates (and archaeology is without concrete absolute dates in this period; no coins that say 3000 BCE), you can see a series of settlements of the land by different cultures. You can see a lot about their level of material culture and about how levels of habitation began and ended. A layer of ash between two levels suggests strongly that the lower (earlier) one was destroyed in fire.<br />
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And what you get matches the biblical historical narratives. It's just that with the chronology of Egypt stretched out artificially like it's on some Procrustean bed (or Og's, if you like), everything gets labeled differently.<br />
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There are many reasons why the end of the Old Kingdom (end of the 6th Dynasty) should be dated to the time of the Exodus. And there are other issues as well. Shlomo's kingdom is utterly missing from the archaeological record. Unless you assume that the Bible was making most of it up. But there's archaeological evidence of a huge empire stretching from the eastern Nile Delta up to the Euphrates. Its inhabitants spoke Biblical Hebrew and used biblical weights and measures. And scholars are split on whether it fell apart due to invasions from Egypt or civil war. Which you'd think would be an obvious match. But since that empire was during the Second Intermediate Period in Egypt (right before the 18th Dynasty), it "couldn't have been Shlomo", and it gets called the "Hyksos Empire", despite the fact that ancient documents that mention the Hyksos (like Manetho) say that they ruled from Memphis, far to the south of the southernmost part of the empire, and don't even suggest that they ruled anywhere outside of Egypt.<br />
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Anyway, there's a short piece I ghostwrote about 15 years ago on the subject. It was for Jewish Action, so it's not exactly a scholarly piece, but if you're interested, I put the link in my initial comment. <br />
October 6, 2010 5:27 PM <br />
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Rabbi Jeffrey Falick said... <br />
"And what you get matches the biblical historical narratives."<br />
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Um, no, Lisa, just...no.<br />
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There is no material evidence whatsoever of an exodus taking place. There is real scholarship easily available on these matters, notably Finkelstein and Silberman's "Unearthing the Bible" is an excellent starting point. There is evidence of major population upheavals and settlement in the highlands around 1200 BCE. This is suspected to have been caused by a re-organization of Canaanite life. These were possibly the real ancestors of the Israelites. Again, see Finkelstein and Silberman.<br />
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It is true that there is archeological support for the events of the bible, broadly understood, from after David/Solomon and on. There is absolutely no evidence of an exodus or conquest as described in the bible. Egyptology, with tiny exceptions, is irrelevant.<br />
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www.TheAtheistRabbi.com <br />
October 7, 2010 2:36 PM <br />
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Lisa said... <br />
Jeff, Unearthing the Bible is sitting on my bookshelf, about two and a half feet away from me right now. What makes you think I haven't read it?<br />
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What you don't understand is that their view assumes the conventional chronology of the strata. It can't be used as a support for that chronology without it being circular reason.<br />
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I laughed a lot while reading that book. Not because I don't respect their scholarship. On the contrary. The scholarship I disrespect is the sort that "broadly understands" the biblical historical narrative. If there's no room for the biblical account of Solomon's kingdom in the Iron Age or at the end of the Bronze Age, say so. People like Hershel Shanks who weasel around with their "broad understandings" in order to shoehorn the biblical account into the archaeological evidence are unfortunate.<br />
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But while I read that book, I did so with the question of the dating of the stratigraphy in mind. And all the way through the book, supposed "conflicts" turned out to be nothing but artifacts of an incorrect stratigraphic dating.<br />
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I've been meaning to post a commentary of the book on my blog, going over these "conflicts" point by point. You've given me some more impetus to do so.<br />
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Did you read the article I linked to above? Bear in mind that the biblical historical narratives being accurate doesn't in any way prove that the religious elements in the Bible are for real. Your atheism is safe on that count. But the royal inscriptions from Egypt and Assyria are just as replete with supernatural events and claims that their deities got involved with the events. Scholars don't throw out these inscriptions because of the religious aspects; they simply disregard them for the purposes of history. <br />
October 7, 2010 2:51 PM <br />
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Skeptitcher Rebbe said... <br />
The following comment is from gntessler<br />
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They were unable for some technical reason to post this comment themselves, so they e-mailed me and I am posting it on their behalf.<br />
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dear SR;<br />
I tried to post on your site, but was unable to get past the 'select profle' part. bottom line: dont give up your skepticism! I would like to comment on Lisa's comments.<br />
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The date of the exodus of Israelites from Egypt is usually in the framwork of 1500-1200 BCE. A few opinions have pushed it back to the 1700 BCE era. This is the opinion of Immanual Velikovsky and David Rohl, whose theories on the dating of the exodus have been definitively refuted. Lisa would have you believe that the exodus was in the 6th dynasty ( 2323-2150 BCE ) because of the nonagenerian, Pepe II ( 2246-2152 BCE ). This date, you may notice is 1000 years earlier than the generally accepted date of the exodus !!<br />
Secondly, as far as the number of Israelites, 600,000 men between the ages of 20 to 60, plus their wives, children and elderly would be, as you mentioned approximately 2,500,000 people. The statement: Midrash is Midrash is just a silly statement. Rashi states that during the plague of darkness, 80% of the Israelites died. Today, all, i.e. 100%, Torah-observant, God-fearing Jews absolutely believe this Midrash. It is irrelevant to Reform and Conservative Jews, since they generally don't believe the exodus even happened, ( See passover sermon of Rabbi David Wolpe, 2001 ). This would mean that there were at least 12,500,000 Israelites on the day before the darkness plague. Remember, although the Israelites may have been slaves, they were not in a concentration camp nor gulag, where a few guards could guard many thousands of prisoners. This was an active Egyptian civilization. Estimates or "guesstimates" of the Egyptian population at the time of the exodus was between 2-3 milliion up to 5 million people. Of course these numbers could be based on errant information disseminated by a coterie of conspiratorial egyptologists. Anyway, this would put the population of Egypt at that time to be close to 20,000,000!! An absolutely impossible number. <br />
October 7, 2010 8:13 PM <br />
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Skeptitcher Rebbe said... <br />
The following comment is from gntessler continued...<br />
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SR, if you wanted to use any of the above as a comment on your site, that would b OK. You should know that many, many, many dates and events in just the Chumash have been refuted by data and logic. Even in Nevi'im, the numbers of soldiers in Israelite armies are beyond credulity. Although we all agree that the Torah is not a "History Book", it does give dates and events that can be verified or falsified. <br />
I would like to close with a "Vort" from this week's parsha, Noach.<br />
The world was created in the year 3761 BCE ( 5771 CE, which we celebrated on Rosh Hashana , 5771 -2010 = 3761 ). Noach was born in the year 1056 , 2705 BCE. At the age of 600 yrs, Noach set sail in his ark with his menagerie and relatives, 2105 BCE. In the year 2104 BCE, Noach descended from the ark, presumably finding a world totally devoid of life, possibly plant but certainly no animals. All the events of the story can be explained by one word: Miracle ! except one.<br />
In the year 2104 BCE , Egypt was in the First Intermediate Period ( 2181-2055 BCE ) There is absolutely no evidence of a sudden cessation of life in Egypt. History in Egypt was continuous as is well documented. Further east, 2104 BCE was the twilight years of the Sumerian civilization and the rising of the Akkadian civilization, which was called the Sumerian Renaissance. Again there is absolutely no evidence of an end to civilization in that year, and historical documention shows continuity. Further east we come to the Indus Valley in India. In the year 2104 BCE, the Harappan culture was in full swing. Again no sudden cessation of life. And finally, even further east, in China, the Xia dynasty existed. Although several decades ago, the Xia dynasty was thought to be only a legend, there now is documention of its existance. It was followed by the Shang dynasty.<br />
The discrepancy between the dates and details of the Flood and historical continuity of these civilizations cannot be explained away by "miracles". <br />
October 7, 2010 8:15 PM <br />
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Skeptitcher Rebbe said... <br />
Lisa,<br />
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You claim that the Exodus occured during the 6th Egyptian dynasty, correct?<br />
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For clarification do you believe that the Exodus occured in the time around 2300-2100 BCE or do you think that the 6th Egyptian dynasty occured around 1500-1200 BCE? <br />
October 7, 2010 8:25 PM <br />
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Lisa said... <br />
SR, I think it happened in either 1476 BCE or 1310 BCE.<br />
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I'd like to reply to gntessler's comments.<br />
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Bringing up Velikovsky and Rohl any time someone suggests that the conventional chronology may be wrong is an ad hominem fallacy. For the record, though, Velikovsky was wrong because his chronology was unworkable, and because he was trying so hard to make the archaeology fit the biblical accounts that he made some embarrassing (for him) mistakes. He also had no familiarity whatsoever with Akkadian or Egyptian, and he came up with a lot of whoppers as a result.<br />
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"Midrash is midrash" is not a silly statement. You're unfortunately right that there are a lot of haredim who take midrashim too literally, too often. But it doesn't change the fact that Rambam and his son Avraham both referred to anyone who takes midrashim uncritically and literally is a fool. Which is a fairly strong statement.<br />
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I'm not interested in answering for the Artscrollists and DaatTorahists.<br />
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I'm a "Torah-observant, God-fearing Jew", and I don't take that 80% thing literally. And before you ask, I'm not one of those radical left-wing-barely-modern-orthodox Jews, either. So the 12.5 Million figure is nothing but a strawman argument. Please, by all means knock the strawman down if you like; it doesn't interest me.<br />
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And again, when you say "Estimates or 'guesstimates' of the Egyptian population at the time of the exodus was between 2-3 milliion up to 5 million people", you're begging the question of what "at the time of the exodus" means, and what the source of that estimate is. Your comment about "a coterie of conspiratorial egyptologists" is yet another strawman. I didn't say that, and I don't believe it. I think the men and women working in this field and related fields are honest and intelligent and seeking the truth just as much as anyone else. I also think they're hampered by an incorrect chronology.<br />
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Hidden assumptions are insidious, because they never get addressed. Not to prove them and not to disprove them. They're taken for granted the way fish take water for granted and we take air for granted.<br />
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And "many, many, many dates and events in just the Chumash have been refuted by data and logic" is a vague claim that I don't think you can substantiate.<br />
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Lastly, in terms of the Flood happening during the FIP in Egypt, you're again relying on the conventional chronology. I'm certainly not suggesting that there was a global flood during the FIP. Did you see someone else making that claim, or is it a third strawman?<br />
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See, I'm not interested in proving the Bible right. Though it seems to me that you're very interested in the converse. "dont give up your skepticism!" comes across as the sort of thing a kiruv worker or missionary might say. I certainly wouldn't want SR to ever give up using his mind critically, but I get the feeling that you want him to be a "skeptic" (in the sense that you use it) uncritically.<br />
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I'm like 90-95% convinced that it's all true. Which is enough for me until evidence to the contrary comes along. It was a lot less before I started studying ancient history. And gntessler: there's a difference between studying a field and rummaging through books trying to find talking points that can be used as bludgeons against those with whom you disagree. I'm just saying. <br />
October 8, 2010 11:36 AM <br />
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Skeptitcher Rebbe said... <br />
Lisa,<br />
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Thanks for your comments again. Since you seem to be fairly involved with this subject could you inform me how the archeologists came up with their current chronology and what assumptions they made that were evidently false, in your opinion? Is there any place, preferable online, where I can read up on what the archeologists discovered as well as the ancient documents that these archeologists used?<br />
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I see what you are saying about how archeologists may have been basing their findings on mistaken assumptions, I just find it difficult to accept that Egyption history as it is currently determined by the majority of educated archeologists in the field could happen to all make a mistake of this magnitude, ie essentially shortening Egypts history by at least 700 years or so. Also do you have anything from archeologists who have seen and rejected this view so I could see both sides of the argument, because you seem to be saying that archeologists of today are refuting another view of history not the one you are supporting. If they have not refuted this view, why is that? Has it not been presented to them? <br />
October 8, 2010 12:39 PM <br />
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David said... <br />
There's a bit of a trick, here. People (and, Lisa, correct me if I'm wrong) who believe in the Torah don't generally do so because archaology has proved some or all of it to be accurate. They accept the truth of the Torah as an a priorii fact. People who approach it from a scholarly perspective generally don't accept the Torah simply because there's little archaological evidence to support the history therein. However, those who both accept the Torah as "true" and have some interest or acceptance of modern scholarship will generally find (and often go to great lengths to find) some way to reconcile-- at least in their own minds-- the archaeological evidence with the Torah. <br />
October 12, 2010 8:29 AM <br />
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Skeptitcher Rebbe said... <br />
David,<br />
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The problem isn't the lack of evidence for the Torah, it's the evidence that has been found which plainly contradicts the Torah's account. <br />
October 12, 2010 9:38 AM <br />
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Anonymous said... <br />
great dialogue -- LISA, for all of us who have no idea what to think, and are trying for years to make sense of our Judaism, please consider some long form article or a book. If you want, I will put you in contact with some publishers who could be interested. You write very clearly, you have done a lot of research, you have much to say. If you are persuasive, it could really help us all in our profound confusion over Torah, history, accuracy, archaeology, etc.<br />
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Tuvia (Todd) <br />
October 13, 2010 9:07 PM <br />
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Lisa said... <br />
Tuvia, I've been working on a book for a while now. But a full time job and a 10 year old daughter aren't conducive to research and concentration. If you're interested, you could email me at lisa at starways dot net. <br />
November 2, 2010 12:46 PM <br />
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Skeptitcher Rebbe said... <br />
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abele derer said... <br />
There are a couple of points that I will focus on, the stronger ones that you mentioned. <br />
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1. The Aztec myth does not mention the number of witnesses. In fact, according to one version I read, all of them met in a cave. Most caves aren't too big. So it MAY have been a small number of people who were believed to have been on the journey. <br />
Second, how do you know anyone believed the myth? In fact, according to a Lous Weisburton in "Aztec Civilization" the Aztec's are known to have deliberately REVISED their own history to glorify their past"(24). That means that no one believed it. They wrote a glorious history, after they were conquered by the Christians. Did anyone believe the sexy myths? We have no way of knowing, and the fact that each version of the journey contradicts the other versions tells us that no one believed it. Kinda like the Harry Potter myth.<br />
Third do they have the ANY commemorations of the event? <br />
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2. I don't have the burden of proof to show that the chain never broke. Indeed, it is possible that the chain broke. It is possible that flying-spaghetti monsters convinced them to accept a false history. All I am saying is that the evidence I am presenting has never been wrong and nothing even remotely close to it has been shown to be wrong. <br />
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3. I will focus on one of the poins I mentioned, that the sinia events were a miracle. All I am saying is that we have no right to assume that God would have caused various beliefs about the miracles. Citing a non-miraculous event is of no use when trying to decipher HOW God makes people think when He perfoms miracles. <br />
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3. The Zeitoun apparitions are an interesting case, one which I actually wrote a paper on when I was in college. <br />
So how should we deal with this case? The first thing skeptics of miracles (me included)is whether there is a plausible natural cause of this phenominon. There is: Someone either in the vicinity or in the Church itself used a flashlight or spotlight to create a "flashing intermittent light," the words used by one of the witnesses. <br />
So, the believers respond, "but we searched the area and we didn't find a spotlight in the vicinity." <br />
Skeptics: Who searched? How many people searched the church or the vicinity? The answers are not forthcoming. <br />
In short, I BELIEVE THE EVIDENCE. I believe that there was a "flashing intermittent light." However, I merely claim that it was a natural event. <br />
Do you believe that manna fell for 14,600 days? You don't. You simply ignore the evidence. And for no reason (you present an alternative naturalistic approach, which is also possible.)<br />
The point is that optical allusions do exist. And hallucinations do exist. What is remarkable about the sinai history is that it is too extensive for it to be the product of a hallucination.<br />
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4. Regarding the Radak, that's my point exactly. Fifty-five years is too short of an amount of time for the chain to be broken. Also, the chain of miracles wasn't neccesarily broken -- so you haven't met your burden of proof.<br />
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5. Indeed, however, why did so many people forsake the Torah? Because, as the Rambam tells us, people are beholden to the beliefs of their neighbors. It is human nature. And it's very sad. God can bang you over the head a hundred times -- but you will still be more-impressed by what people around you do. A friend of mine, a frum guy, said that he was as devistated by the Jets recent playoff loss than he was by his broken engagement (which she broke)!! And I believe him. If every new yorker is into the Jets, we are into the Jets. <br />
God realized that the only way for the Jews to believe was for other nations to believe in the historicity of the Torah. Before the Jews were exiled, God ensured that other nations would believe in the Sinai events -- Christians and Muslims. <br />
January 25, 2011 2:12 PM <br />
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Skeptitcher Rebbe said... <br />
1. I don't see why any of these questions couldn't be posed towards the Sinai myth. I don't see how a commemeration of the event adds or detracts anything from the likelyhood of any story being true.<br />
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2. If you are trying to claim that the story of the revelation at Sinai is true, simply because the story exists and was accepted as truth, then any break in the chain shows how this story could be made up, and the descendants of that group convinced about a story of this nature of which they never heard before. It seems that it is plausible that the story was made up, and that is the most rational thing to assume. Just because something hasn't been disproven (I think there is enough evidence to disprove the event though) doesn't make it true.<br />
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Can you prove that Mohammed didn't get a revelation from G-d? Can you prove that Jesus wasn't ressurrected? I think you get my point.<br />
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3) Again I am unsure about what you mean here. G-d isn't causing people to believe certain things about these events, the events themselves give rise to memories upon which people structure their beliefs. I don't see how a memory of an event should make a difference if it were miraculous or natural as long as it was an important event for the nation/group of people.<br />
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3(again)) Same skepticism could (and should) be applied to the sinai event. What sort of people investigated the Sinai event? How many?<br />
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Apparently most of the narrative seems to be based on natural events with additional (miraculous) things entering the story over a period of time. How do you know that it was G-d speaking and not some other person? Weren't the people forbidden from approaching the mountain? Could that possibly have anything to do with some trickery going on that Moses didn't want the people to find out about.<br />
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I agree with your skeptical analysis, I just wish you would be consistent in your approach to faith/miracle claims. I am skeptical of all such claims, and Sinai is no different for me. <br />
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4) Why is it too short of a time? When a chain of tradition is broken it is broken. If the people need to be taught about the Torah they should have known about and they accept it even though they hadn't heard of it before, this disproves the Kuzari argument whether it be 100 years or 1 year. 55 years definitely seems like more than enough time to me, I don't see why not.<br />
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5) Yes, they went after their neighbors culture, a convinient place to introduce an embellished story about a national revelation for which the nation of Israel "forgot" because of their attraction to the idols of their neighbors. <br />
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I don't see this as supporting your point that the Sinai event must be true. It sounds more like the opposite. Many of the Jews, (and others like the Samaritans, etc) will accept a myth like that of Sinai to be like their neighbors who believed in it, even though they never received any tradition of it. <br />
January 30, 2011 2:47 AM <br />
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abele derer said... <br />
1. The fact that the event was believed to have been commemorated with everlasting commemorations makes it MUCH harder for people to accept the event. Here, people shouldn't have merely asked: Why didn't we hear about the event from our ancestors but ALSO, "Why haven't we heard about the Sabbath if millions of our ancestors were commanded to keep it it forever?" <br />
The Aztec myth does not claim any commemorations (and, again, it fails to mention the number of people).<br />
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2. I don't care if you think that it is plausible for this thing to have been made up, plausible that my evidence is fallible. Show me that it is indeed plausible for people to accept false national, heavily commemorated history. The only way you can do that is by showing a parallel event. <br />
I don't know if Muhamed is lying. Buy I do know that the evidence he is presenting is fallible: People always lie. If I have fallible evidence for a miracle, I ignore it.<br />
3. Again, you are claiming that God, even when performing a miracle, would SURELY not intervene to solidify the nation's unified and unanimous belief and acceptance of this event. How do you know? Please show me at least three confirmed miraculous events, and show me that these miraculous event lead to divergent beliefs about these events, and you will have made a relevant point. Until then, you haven't.<br />
3 (again). OK. So you are claiming that you believe that manna fell for 14,600 days, but that you skeptically claim that it was a natural event? If that is your claim, then you aren't attacking Kuzari. You are presenting a different argument, which we can discuss.<br />
4. If it was for 55 years, then IT IS NOT BROKEN. Broken, in this context, means that people believed in an event which they could not have checked its veracity from their ancestors. Here, they could have. SO YOUR POINT IS OF NO RELEVANCE. <br />
January 30, 2011 4:54 PM <br />
<br />
Skeptitcher Rebbe said... <br />
1. I think the entire Aztech nation is said to have witnessed these miracles, and as it was a myth about their origins, I have no reason to assume that they didn't believe it. Most of the myths of ancient peoples were believed to be true by the populace, I see no compelling reason to assume the trend was changed in this situation.<br />
<br />
2. You are trying to prove the event of Sinai out of the story itself. History shows that people are extremely gullible and ancient peoples were especially so, not to mention they were also very superstitious and had little to no access to check facts, nor the motivation to.<br />
<br />
If the statement "People always lie" (which btw isn't true, but I understand your point, that people will often make up or exaggerate stories) is enough to dismiss Mohammed, then I see no reason that the evident statement "People are very gullible" can not equally dismiss the Sinai event.<br />
<br />
3. I find it funny that your use of evidence against the Sinai event (that there aren't any divergent claims) you claim is a result of G-d's tampering with our brains. If that is the argument you use, then why should I accept the stories of people who's minds are so easily tampered with. Why would G-d need to tamper with peoples brains anyhow? It seems a rather suspicious presumption, one that could prove any event and doesn't add weight to the Sinai story, but rather weakens it.<br />
<br />
3 (again) I never said I accepted the event as stated. You don't accept the story about The Zeitoun apparitions exactly as stated, but rather ignore the religious aspects of the story and understand them of exaggerations of a natural event. I see it the same way with the manna. There was probably some food that the Israelites (or some other people) may have had access to in the desert. They found it in the morning and assumed it had fallen from heaven. This happened sporadically from time to time, but eventually the story was told as if it happened every single day, except Shabbos. <br />
January 30, 2011 10:02 PM <br />
PG*3http://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.com2tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6333352338723538012.post-30009001174349913572011-12-08T20:18:00.000-08:002011-12-08T20:18:00.951-08:00Letter to the editorOriginally posted on Baal Habos<br />
22 FEBRUARY 2009<br />
<a href="http://baalhabos.blogspot.com/2009_02_01_archive.html">Link</a><br />
<br />
<br />
At least once a month, I get some unsolicited Email, and it's always of some interest to me.<br />
<br />
What's your take of this letter below?<br />
<br />
It included what seems to be a real name, but of course, I won't post that and I edited some other detail (number of kids).<br />
I have a similar story to yours. Maybe we can compare notes.<br />
First of all, although I'm really today frummer than I was raised, I do have a netiya to go OTD. When I was younger I was too embarrassed. Today I'm married and soon I'll have _ kids.<br />
<br />
I have always realized that most people don't agree with each other. Chassidim don't agree with Litvaks, different streams in each don't agree with each other. But one thing everyone has in common: EVERYBODY is convinced that he's seeing things straight and if everyone else would just open their eyes they would see that WE are right.<br />
Litvaks are convinced that every chassid deep inside knows that being litvish is right. Every Modern Orthodox I've ever met thinks that every Charedi secretly wants to be MO.<br />
And every Satmar KNOWS that the only reason everyone else is not Satmar is because they're letting their taavos in the way. I could go on and on.<br />
<br />
Most people would have decided that they're all a bunch of garbage, but I decided that maybe everyone has some truth and some sheker, and I love everybody and appreciate everybody for what they stand for. And I try understanding them from *their* point of view. I take what everyone says seriously, even after I make a decision I still respect the outlook of others (and to the disgust of some of my friends, I even respect Satmar!)<br />
<br />
I also decided that I wanted to understand people with sfeykos in Emunah from their own point of view. After checking out their blogs I was shocked to see that they also are convinced that if only everyone else would just open their eyes then they would also have sfeykos. Of course, they realize that the people without sfeykos say the exact same thing,<br />
Really, I shouldn't have been shocked at all. They're just like everyone else, who can't think out of their box. But I also started having sfeykos. Of course, sfeykos doesn't prove anything, and kashyos don't prove anything. Someone who has doubts about his atheism doesn't automatically start believing in Christ. <br />
Maybe frum people are right that there are answers? <br />
So what do we do?<br />
The rabbonim are convinced that there are answers for everything. Have you contacted them? Just because I don't understand their answers doesn't mean that they are wrong. just because I don't understand bilogy doesn't disprove evolution, but neither does it prove it?<br />
<br />
Right now I don't have alot of time for EMail discusions, and even less time to go to Footsteps to discuss this with live people. Do you have any eytzos?<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
My response was <br />
<br />
"Have you read my story? I don't think it's similar at all. I had no Netiya to go OTD. <br />
I'm also not exactly sure what you're asking. I have no eitsos as as evidenced by my blog.<br />
<br />
BTW, are you trying to be Mekarev me?<br />
<br />
BHB<br />
<br />
<br />
I'm almost certain he was trying a Kiruv job. But why does he need to be so sneaky? Why not just come out and say it? Why the subterfuge? Can't Kiruv stand on it's own without deception? I can't imagine Footsteps doing anything as underhanded as this.<br />
<br />
<br />
I haven't heard from him again, so I'm pretty sure I'm right.<br />
<br />
Was I wrong? Was I too brusque with him? Is he another lost skeptic soul who needs my chizzuk? I don't think so. I think I had him nailed. I think he was a fake phony and fraud. But then again, you never know. <br />
posted by Baal Habos @ 2/22/2009 <br />
==========================================================<br />
Mark <br />
I could bet my house (don't have one, but whatever), that you nailed him. It screams from the lines. I could see he doesn't get that the pettiness he is used to is not what our issue is. Don't worry about him. <br />
Sunday, February 22, 2009, 3:56:59 PM<br />
– Like – Reply<br />
<br />
Product <br />
To be honest, it doesnt really matter. <br />
You dont have to feel annoyed be missionaries. We should accept the truth wherever it is. If a rabbi wants to throw down the gauntlet and convince you with his answers, wouldnt you go for it and try to prove him YOUR answers? <br />
You dont have to feel bad if you were too brusque; you dont win a mitzvah by being mkerev frum people to be skeptics. The facts are out there, and anybody who possesses critical thinking skills and is willing to use them is welcome. <br />
Sunday, February 22, 2009, 5:08:21 PM<br />
– Like – Reply<br />
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Baal Habos <br />
>You dont have to feel bad if you were too brusque; you dont win a mitzvah by being mkerev frum people to be skeptics. <br />
<br />
No, I'm not trying to turn believers into skeptics. My concern is what if he's really a skeptic who's looking for chizuk. But a real skeptic would never use a real name. <br />
Sunday, February 22, 2009, 6:57:26 PM<br />
– Like – Reply<br />
<br />
Mark <br />
"But a real skeptic would never use a real name." <br />
<br />
You shouldn't say that. Some people are in a position to do so. He just souneded like a fraud. <br />
Monday, February 23, 2009, 12:48:10 AM<br />
– Like – Reply<br />
<br />
JS <br />
wow. seems to me, your response to that guy was way out of character compared with all the other thoughtful, measured, intelligent comments of yours that I've been seeing. Reading--and rereading--his email, I didn't see a single thing that really 'screamed phony'. Not terribly sophisticated, maybe---certainly not well-versed in the glib repartee some of your regulars favor---but to all appearances, sincere; simply someone bothered by doubts who thought he might've found a like mind. Trying to be mekarev you? Was that the part about everyone having some truth and some sheker... or maybe the admission that he has sfeykos? c'mon... <br />
<br />
your assertion that you "don't think [your background/story] is similar at all" is a case of protesting too much. The similarity he referred to was plainly--and obviously--that both you and he had doubts, period. <br />
<br />
Your reaction was too defensive. And the way some of the others applauded, with zero consideration of the possibility the guy was sincere, makes it seem uncomfortably like a closed circle reinforcing its own, ahem, orthodoxy. <br />
<br />
just my opinion. (For the record, I'm only here because I saw, and enjoyed, many of your posts on various blogs.) <br />
Tuesday, February 24, 2009, 3:15:43 PM<br />
– Like – Reply<br />
<br />
Baal Habos <br />
JS, <br />
<br />
Al Achron, Rishon. <br />
<br />
>(For the record, I'm only here because I saw, and enjoyed, many of your posts on various blogs.) <br />
<br />
Thank you. But there's really no need to apologize for stopping in ;) <br />
<br />
> seems to me, your response to that guy was way out of character <br />
<br />
Yes, I admit I was a bit curt, unnecessarily so, but I still stand by my suspicions. <br />
<br />
> Not terribly sophisticated, maybe---certainly not well-versed in the glib repartee some of your regulars favor---but to all appearances, sincere; simply someone bothered by doubts who thought he might've found a like mind. <br />
<br />
No, Anyone reading my blog, knows that I don't really have doubts, I was always way past that in all my blog posts, even from day one. And nothing in my blog ever mentioned a netiya to go OTD. <br />
<br />
> Trying to be mekarev you? Was that the part about everyone having some truth and some sheker... or maybe the admission that he has sfeykos? c'mon... <br />
<br />
It's that, together with what seems to me to be a deliberate unsophistication. <br />
<br />
>your assertion that you "don't think [your background/story] is similar at all" is a case of protesting too much. <br />
<br />
No, I did not protest enough! I've seen that in the past, the intimation that Skeptics are driven by a desire to go OTD and then "maybe the Rabbi's are right". It's a typical one two punch. <br />
<br />
>The similarity he referred to was plainly--and obviously--that both you and he had doubts, period. <br />
<br />
I didn't read it that way. But I admit, I might be wrong. <br />
<br />
If I am, I apologize. <br />
Tuesday, February 24, 2009, 10:45:44 PM<br />
– Like – Reply<br />
<br />
JS <br />
> <br />
<br />
OK... I was basing that on your 'byline' describing yourself as "just your typical Baal Habos, who's grown a little skeptical....".(Besides, it may have been evolutionary or revolutionary---but at some point, whether for years or for a day, you had doubts, no? that moment in the doorway between "of course things happened just that way in the year 1300BC"---and "waitaminnit--just because one well-meaning rabbi in the year 500AD makes an historical assertion, sans anything resembling evidence...") <br />
also, one might arguably define being "way past" entertaining doubts as going OTD, if only 'in one's heart', an intrinsic part of said derech being emunah in certain principles of faith, no? Semantics, in any case. <br />
<br />
(I'm not Jacob Stein, btw) <br />
Wednesday, February 25, 2009, 8:47:22 AM<br />
– Like – Reply<br />
<br />
Baal Habos <br />
JS, it was more revolutionary for me. Of course, that's not the case 100%. I was slowly accumulating knowledge that eventually turned me, but I was not aware of any internal conflict as it was building. I didn't agonize over things. It was just a kashya, and another kashya, etc. And you know the old adage, from a Kashya shtarbt men nisht. There was suddenly this terrible moment when it all "clicked" and suddenly the old model was just no longer believable. I hadn't yet replaced it with a new model, but the old one was destroyed. It's all described in posts of the past which are accesible in the side-bar (Getting to know me). Too bad the comments are in Blogger form and not accesible thru the current Haloscan template. It was very lively here back then. <br />
<br />
So just to re-iterate. I simply don't relate to "having a tendency to go OTD" and my defences go up when that is insinuated. <br />
<br />
While things have changed a bit, this http://baalhabos.blogspot.com/2006/08/private-orthoprax-continued.html <br />
<br />
and the one linked to it in the beginning of that post explains it a bit better. <br />
Wednesday, February 25, 2009, 5:48:27 PM<br />
– Like – Reply<br />
<br />
Baal Habos <br />
JS, and see this - http://lonelymanofskepticism.blogspot.com/2009/02/buyers-remorse.html <br />
<br />
So deception seems to be fair game for people into Kiruv. That does not prove anything about the one who wrote the letter to me. Yet it does show that at least some Kiruv people have no qualms about approaches that are less than 100% forthcoming.G*3http://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6333352338723538012.post-40473250212040174632011-12-08T20:16:00.000-08:002011-12-08T20:16:35.270-08:00New! Frum ScienceOriginally published by Godol Hador<br />
<a href="http://classikefira.blogspot.com/search/label/Godol%20Hador">Link</a><br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<a href="http://boroparkpyro.blogspot.com/2006/01/wrathful-dispersion-theory.html">Steg </a>posts about ‘Wrathful Dispersion’ Theory, a new theory rapidly gaining in popularity, that suggests that all the different languages arose because Someone (not saying who) deliberately caused ‘confusion of the tongues’. My brain is a little fried this morning from working on a PowerPoint since 7:30am, so I can’t figure out if this is just an imaginative spoof of ID or if there are really fundamentalists out there who are pushing this. The fundies are so loony that I wouldn’t be surprised. Ku-ku-ri-ku!<br />
<br />
But this got me thinking, why stop at ID and WD? We should create a whole new ‘Frum Science’, which answers all the difficulties between modern Science and the Torah. That way, we can engage in Science quite happily with no contradictions at all.<br />
<br />
Here are some of my proposed theories.<br />
<br />
Global H20 Theory<br />
It is clearly possible that at some point in the past (about 5,000 years ago), a major Global Warming Event occurred. This event, caused by the sudden appearance of about 5 trillion trillion trillion tonns of boiling hot water clearly devastated the planet and everybody who lived on it. This water also had some very special properties (which Scientists today are not aware of), and so didn’t leave any traces. It also all vanished. Where did this water come from? We don’t like to suggest any Names, but clearly it could only have come from Someone capable of magically dropping 5 trillion trillion trillion tones of boiling magic water on the planet, and then removing it all a year, leaving no trace at all. We believe that this theory should be taught alongside traditional geography classes, as it is certainly a credible and very scientific alternative.<br />
<br />
Animal Communication Theory<br />
Recent studies have shown that chimpanzees possess a remarkable ability to communicate. It is not a stretch of the imagination to posit that other animals posses such abilities too. For example, parrots can say a few words, and I’ve seen a dog on TV say ‘sausages’. So why not snakes? This theory suggests that a talking snake is in fact possible, or may have been possible in the past. We are not saying exactly who the snake was, or what he may have said, or who he was speaking to at the time, but it’s interesting to note that certain ANE texts do describe a similar occurrence, thus providing further evidence for this theory.<br />
<br />
Genetic Lifespan Endurance Theory<br />
Science has made great strides in genetics. It will be possible to some day clone a human, and even alter our genes so that we can live to be 1,000 years old. Today, the longest lifespans typically do not exceed 120, and no one has ever been recorded living past 150 in recent times. However this is clearly due to poor diets and lack of exercise. We suggest that in the distant past, when people ate better, and exercised more frequently, their genes could have been much better, enabling lifespans of 500 or even 930 years. We would like this theory to be taught in History classes. Or maybe Cooking.<br />
<br />
Location Based Time Relativity Theory<br />
This theory is an extension of the General Theory of Relativity. It suggests that time can flow at various speeds, which still maintaining the overall rate of flow. For example, 15 billion years could pass by in six 24 hour days. This is a difficult and non intuitive concept to grasp, but true Scientists understand that difficult and non intuitive concepts are the hallmark of modern Science. With this theory, it is clearly possible that the world is in fact 5765 + 6 days old, and those 6 days actually contained 15 billion years worth of time, while still absolutely and definitely remaining 6 days of 24 hours each, of 60 minutes each, of 60 seconds each. And the seconds are normal seconds too! But still 15 billion years passed. Isn’t Science amazing! We think so!<br />
posted by XGH @ 10:39 AM <!--[if !vml]--> <!--[endif]-->G*3http://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6333352338723538012.post-566064748389736052011-11-29T19:18:00.001-08:002011-11-29T19:18:46.339-08:00The Age of Reason?Originally posted on Divrei Acher<br />
Sunday, July 19, 2009<br />
<a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/07/age-of-reason.html">Link</a><br />
<br />
<br />
I'm reading Gershom Scholem's autobiography, and the strongest impression that I got from it so far, was the intellectually stimulating environment he found himself in. The Apikorsus of all brands was there for the picking. There were groups, circles, clubs and organizations of all kinds based on this or that shared common belief. Today, there are a few of us here and there who have to go to great lengths to meet a like minded soul. When I read accounts of that time period, I feel like I'm in the wrong century. Granted, most of the intellectual fads of the time, were based on some sort of socialism, which is revolting to me, mostly due to it's naivete, and completely unfounded belief in humanity. Nonetheless, it was a time fertile for intellectual creativity, and Meshugaim like us, who cared or at least though they cared for the truth, were common enough to be a class for themselves, that can flourish as such.<br />
This bring me to my second point, the different manifestations of our Apikorsus. It seems like these guys had guts, something that I find lacking in many of us, myself including, to a degree. Certainly, much of this difference can be attributed to demographics. Most Jews at that time, especially in Eastern Europe, were religious, and that was the time when those that couldn't stay were leaving. It was a mass exodus, simply because it's time had come. In numbers there is power, and it seems like the established religious power holders, were on the defensive. We're now a century after this process, and the religious community has come back in a much smaller, compact and introverted form. It's also been setup (at least the ultra Orthodox) with the primary goal of keeping its members in the fold. This has created a very different dynamic, a sort of reversion to tribalism if I may use the term, which is very successful at keeping it's limited numbers in the fold.<br />
And still, I think there is something missing. Maybe it's living in America, the land of the cheeseburger and the SUV. I don't know, but why can't we be something more than just a couple of Meshugaim. We're definitely a product of the times, and times have changed, alas they've become more boring. <br />
POSTED BY ACHER AT 2:56 PM <br />
=====================================<br />
8 COMMENTS: <br />
<br />
Freethinking Upstart said... <br />
>Granted, most of the intellectual fads of the time, were based on some sort of socialism, which is revolting to me, mostly due to it's naivete, and completely unfounded belief in humanity. <br />
<br />
Maybe you could talk more about your revulsion with socialism. I find political theories intriguing. <br />
<br />
What do you think most of the intellectual fads of today are based on? <br />
JULY 19, 2009 3:34 PM <br />
<br />
Frum Heretic said... <br />
If you haven't already read it, check out the fascinating article from The Nation: http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090126/grafton/single <br />
JULY 19, 2009 6:05 PM <br />
<br />
Baal Habos said... <br />
Acher, agreed, it's kind of sad there are so few of us. That's actually on of the depressing things about blogging. I expected to see the circle of bloggers grow exponentially, but that has not really happened. <br />
<br />
<br />
Frum Heretic, the best line in that article: "You know that I believe that mysticism is nonsense, total and complete nonsense, but the history of nonsense is scholarship." <br />
JULY 19, 2009 8:39 PM <br />
<br />
Pen Tivokeish said... <br />
I believe it a has a lot to do with material wealth. <br />
<br />
Poverty was and still is a great motivator. <br />
<br />
Also, the kotzker vort: "אַל תֹּאמַר מֶה הָיָה שֶׁהַיָּמִים הָרִאשֹׁנִים הָיוּ טוֹבִים מֵאֵלֶּה כִּי לֹא מֵחָכְמָה שָׁאַלְתָּ עַל זֶה. " that it may be true, but no need to dwell upon it. :) <br />
JULY 20, 2009 5:21 PM <br />
<br />
Baal Habos said... <br />
PT, yes, poverty is a great motivator. So how come Bnei Brak is not awash with skepticism? (Or is it?) <br />
<br />
I think there's more to it. <br />
JULY 21, 2009 7:17 AM <br />
<br />
Acher said... <br />
"You know that I believe that mysticism is nonsense, total and complete nonsense, but the history of nonsense is scholarship."<br />
<br />
By far my favorite quote of all time.<br />
<br />
PT,<br />
<br />
Yor point is valid but isn't completely accurate historically. Often lots of fevrent intellectual activity was going on amongst youth who grew up in middle class families or even well off. Case in point, Scholem himself.<br />
<br />
Oh the times they are changing, hoho the times they are changing... <br />
<br />
Bob Dylan<br />
<br />
FTU,<br />
<br />
It's too bad I was very tired last night when I read your comment, because I was very much in the mood for writing some bitingly sarcastic polemic against foolish do-good political movements. Today, I'm in a more equanimous state of mind, which is good I guess. Briefly, my cynical nature and the clear perception that everyone is ultimately selfish, no matter what sauce they may put their words in (it's a simple fact of nature), makes me scoff at any type of socialism, which is ultimately based on some belief in the goodness of the human spirit. Utter nonesense, and all attempts at it have proven my view to be correct again and again.<br />
As to contemporary political thought, I have to admit that politics doesn't interest as much, if at all, as history, and I only study political theories for their historical value, so I'm relatively ignorant as to contemporary political thought. <br />
JULY 21, 2009 7:55 PM <br />
<br />
evanstonjew said... <br />
First of all Scholem wasn't an apikoris in our sense. He came from an assimilated home and returned to Judaism. Second he was religious, even mystical though he never went to a shul. Third the difference between then and now was that they had hope, and though very sophisticated in a Berlin-German way, they were not cynical. Fourth he wasn't a socialist but a radical close to anarchists. His friend Benjamin became a communist, but Scholem was never ever close. <br />
<br />
Scholem knew little of East European yiddishkeit. Buber did. Scholem was a great yekke, right about Zionism, right about Israreli politics, right about Hanna Arendt and Eichman to name just a few of his famous polemical fights. <br />
<br />
If I had to pick the greatest of that chabura in the sense of the most geshmack I would say Agnon.The greatest German Jewish writer of that period for me is Kafka. The one with the greatest general influence is Benjamin. The guy who taught me the most about Judaism is Freud followed by Scholem. LOL.<br />
<br />
What a wonderful awesome generation. <br />
JULY 22, 2009 12:55 AM <br />
<br />
Acher said... <br />
EJ,<br />
<br />
>though he never went to a shul<br />
<br />
Incorrect, but otherwise, true, true, true, and true. But I wasn't specifically referring to Scholem, reading him just got me thinking of the times, and in reality I probably relate more to the Russian intellectual, the ostjude, than to his Yekke couterpart. There was much more cynicism there, but it seems like at that time it was of a constructive kind, not of the desperate kind I see in myself and others today. <br />
JULY 22, 2009 7:46 PMG*3http://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6333352338723538012.post-52885323728957906062011-11-29T19:17:00.001-08:002011-11-29T19:17:56.421-08:00EichahOriginally posted on Divrei Acher<br />
Thursday, July 30, 2009<br />
<a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/07/eichah.html">Link</a><br />
<br />
<br />
Listening to Eichah last night, I realized a simple thing, namely that of the first 4 chapters in which the Psukim are composed in alphabetical order, there is a discrepancy in the order used. Only the first chapter goes according to the order we're familiar with, chapters 2-4 have Peh before Ayin in all three chapters. Is this a mistake in transmission, or more likely, there were different orders used in different times? Has anyone noticed this, also any suggestions about literature on this topic.<br />
What disappointed me about this finding last night, was the following: I've read Eichah dozens of times already, and it took me to become an Apikores to realize something as simple as this? Were we really that blind? I know we were, but that blind!<br />
Another simple thing that came to my attention is that the meaning of the Posuk,<br />
רְאֵה יְהוָה וְהַבִּיטָה, לְמִי עוֹלַלְתָּ כֹּה: אִם-תֹּאכַלְנָה נָשִׁים פִּרְיָם עֹלְלֵי טִפֻּחִים, אִם-יֵהָרֵג בְּמִקְדַּשׁ אֲדֹנָי כֹּהֵן וְנָבִיא<br />
'See, O LORD, and consider, to whom Thou hast done thus! Shall the women eat their fruit, the children that are dandled in the hands? Shall the priest and the prophet be slain in the sanctuary of the Lord? (Lamentations 2:20)<br />
has nothing to do with the Gemara's Pshat that says the latter half of the Psouk is a retort by God, referring to the slaying of Zecharyah by the Jews hundreds of years prior. This I kind of knew, but still the Drush which RSH"I brings down was always so vivid, I would automatically read it that way.<br />
<br />
Nu, so what's the Mussar Haskel. Don't read TN"KH without Meforshim: you will become an Apikores. And conversely, the surest way to become an Apikores is to read the text of TN"KH by itself! But please boys and girls don't try this at home, it is dangerous. <br />
POSTED BY ACHER AT 6:57 PM <br />
LABELS: EICHAH <br />
================================<br />
4 COMMENTS: <br />
<br />
zdub said... <br />
They messed up with the links, but this should still work:<br />
<br />
The Peh/Ayin Order in the Acrostics of the Book of Eichah. <br />
JULY 30, 2009 8:39 PM <br />
<br />
Baal Habos said... <br />
Acher, great catch! <br />
<br />
Some will say, what's the big deal? Chazal already caught all this, as pointed out by zdub. Well, Chazal had a much smaller corpus of literature to work with. I.e. they never had to mess with Tosifos (or even Gemarah)! So while we are attuned to scouring the details of the Mishna Berurah and Toisfois, Chazal had the luxury of analyzing the core texts. (Obviously I didn't do such a fine job with my Sanhedrin, because I don't ever recall hearing about this Ayin/Peh issue.)<br />
<br />
And zdub, thanks for that link.<br />
<br />
<br />
Interestingly enough, with the reversed order, this vort does not hold true. <br />
JULY 31, 2009 10:40 AM <br />
<br />
Acher said... <br />
Zdub,<br />
<br />
First, I'm happy to know that I have more than a dozen readers, maybe with 13 it means we can make a Pesach Seder, (Lfum Chad Girsa) :)<br />
<br />
Anyway, thanks for the link, and that means I should check my emails from the Sforimblog more often for good stuff like this. <br />
<br />
BHB,<br />
<br />
I was actually very disappointed that I didn't remember the Gemarah in Sanhedrin myself, I did go through Sanhedrin some years back. But again, my greater disappointment lies in the fact that it took me till now to realize it.<br />
<br />
And that Vort is true, I mean the good part of it: Elvis = Lives, Mamesh what can be more Poshut than that :)<br />
And please if you have anything more like that please email me, you know I love this type of stuff. <br />
JULY 31, 2009 8:00 PM <br />
<br />
Modernorthodoxhistorian said... <br />
I wrote an article on this:<br />
see seforim.traditiononline.org<br />
<br />
it is the last article on the site<br />
<br />
Mitchell First <br />
OCTOBER 6, 2009 8:23 PMG*3http://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6333352338723538012.post-43458653468040746822011-11-29T19:16:00.000-08:002011-11-29T19:16:14.509-08:00No questions askedOriginally posted on Baal Habos<br />
21 MARCH 2009<br />
<a href="http://baalhabos.blogspot.com/2009_03_01_archive.html">Link</a><br />
<br />
<br />
Last week, a comment in a Letter to The Editor in the Jewish Press caught my eye. I doubt that comment would have passed muster (not Mustard!) in the Yaated Neeman. Check out the last Letter on the bottom entitled "Hearing Vs. Discerning".<br />
<br />
It seems that Dr. Yaakov Stern goes out of his way to make this astonishing admission:<br />
“While we may not like to admit this, even to ourselves, the reality is that everyone to some degree is plagued by doubt as to the veracity of the Torah and the omnipotence of Hashem...........”<br />
<br />
Now, that's quite a shocker. Until my skeptic years, I really can't say that I was consciously aware of such feelings. Sure, I may have had some issues with some Chazals and some Gemaras. But that's not quite the same as doubting the veracity of the Torah. I may even have had some questions about the Torah, but to claim everyone is plagued by doubt seems to speak more to Dr. Stern's frame of mind.<br />
<br />
[So please tell us Dr. Stern, what exactly about the Torah do you doubt? Maybe I can help out out there? Yuk Yuk.]<br />
<br />
And if you DO doubt it and if everyone doubts it, why is it so terrible to ask questions in public? If doubt is normal, then maybe there's a good reason for it! If doubt is commonplace, isn't it more than expected that some will act on their doubt? Why is it a given, in polite company, that Toras Hashem Temima?<br />
<br />
But the truth is that Dr. Stern is at least partially correct. Many people might have moderate levels of doubt. The numerous "train the teacher" Kiruv programs might be be nothing more than an excuse to allow the FFB adult to explore the forbidden in a controlled environment. When Rabbonim tell people about these programs in public, they often say as an unplanned afterthought, "and it will help your own Emunah". Books like Permission to Believe and Permission to Receive are not just meant for the borderline BT. I think it's on the Bookshelf of many Maaminim Bnei Maaminim.<br />
<br />
Yet, for all the doubt that does exist, it's still verboten to express your doubts in public. Honest questions of basic belief are not tolerated. Just try it. Just try the vaguest hint of questioning even today's rabbonim, let alone Chazal, and you'll get comments such as "you need to work on yourself" or "That's dangerous" or "I believe such and such because I believe in God". As if their Rav has Gilui Eliyahu.<br />
<br />
You'll get odd looks and many types of statements either putting you in your place or cavalierly dismissing the hint of questioning. You'll get any statement other than an open admission that there's a good reason to doubt or that it's OK to doubt.<br />
<br />
So my skeptic friend. Just nod your head at the assertion that there will be a Mechitsa in Olam Haboh when listening to Hashem's Shiurim (yes, that was a statement from an Adam Godol). Just keep your mouth shut.<br />
<br />
Why?<br />
<br />
Because an elephant in the room is easier ignored than a buzzing bee.<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
posted by Baal Habos @ 3/21/2009 <br />
===========================================<br />
offthederech <br />
Great post. and they wonder why I call it a cult... <br />
Sunday, March 22, 2009, 12:58:04 AM<br />
– Like – Reply<br />
<br />
Mark <br />
>Because an elephant in the room is easier ignored than a buzzing bee. <br />
<br />
The problem is, these days the Gedolim are becoming more and more like buzzing elephants. <br />
<br />
I think you're a better judge on what a Frum person really believes and how much he doubts. You were a believer as an adult, while I started loosing it as I came into my own. Although I will say that when I was really FarFrumt, I not only believed, I thought I can prove God through Moreh Nvuchim etc. <br />
But I even have a hard time believing many Frum people are in a state of mind that I was before my official skepticism, where I had dubts but wouldn't allow myself to "go there". That's already too much. So maybe this Stern himself is Abiselh you know, not all the way were he 'should' be. <br />
Sunday, March 22, 2009, 1:02:36 AM<br />
– Like – Reply<br />
<br />
Baal Habos <br />
OTD, Thanks! <br />
<br />
> So maybe this Stern himself is Abiselh you know, not all the way were he 'should' be. <br />
<br />
Yes, that's why I said "astonishing admission". No way this would make it into a more right wing paper. <br />
Sunday, March 22, 2009, 1:18:26 AM<br />
– Like – Reply<br />
<br />
kollel wife <br />
Well said. We, grown men and women, are expected to act as if that which is uppermost in our minds doesn't even exist. What a horrific sham our lives have become. <br />
Sunday, March 22, 2009, 1:42:06 AM<br />
– Like – Reply<br />
<br />
Baal Habos <br />
>We, grown men and women <br />
<br />
Kolel Wife,we could use a few good women on this blog. But I'm not sure I want to have real Kolel Wives reading my blog, unless you're a real skeptic. Are you pulling some kind of letzanus? <br />
Sunday, March 22, 2009, 1:52:28 AM<br />
– Like – Reply<br />
<br />
Pen Tivokeish <br />
Re your poll "For believers only", I yell discrimination BHB. You need to create another poll with similar questions for the كفّار kuffār <br />
Sunday, March 22, 2009, 8:48:10 AM<br />
– Like – Reply<br />
<br />
XGH <br />
Actually I think this makes sense. There's lots of things that go on in society, but people make a conscious decision not to have it all 'out in the open', to at least maintain appearances. Many examples, including marriages, adultry other issues etc etc etc. Society requires a certain facade. <br />
Sunday, March 22, 2009, 10:59:21 AM<br />
– Like – Reply<br />
<br />
Anon <br />
>Because an elephant in the room is easier ignored than a buzzing bee. <br />
<br />
That is exactly why you bloggers are in business. <br />
Sunday, March 22, 2009, 12:12:15 PM<br />
– Like – Reply<br />
<br />
Baal Habos <br />
> Actually I think this makes sense <br />
Sure, everything I write makes sense! <br />
Sunday, March 22, 2009, 12:21:18 PM<br />
– Like – Reply<br />
<br />
<br />
JS <br />
I've long noted--with considerable dismay at his inxplicable knack for getting said rants published in the JP---Dr. Stern's entries in the Letters section of the Jewish Press. For what it's worth, they exhibit a very consistent and defined, if obnoxious, worldview: basically all examples of independent thought he disses & dismisses as "gedolim-bashing". He's also a fan of that time-honored device of "I'm not criticizing---I, too am guilty of the above"---which tends to come across about as sincere as "nisht oif Shabbos geredt, but what stocks are you pushing this month?" or "no offense, but that haircut makes you look like a baboon." <br />
Sunday, March 22, 2009, 3:05:42 PM<br />
– Like – Reply<br />
<br />
MK <br />
There is a big difference between "questioning" and "skepticism", and even more so questioning a modern day Rabbi and questioning Moshe Rabbeinu. <br />
<br />
Not sure what Stern had in mind, however IMHO, asking questions is good, I've questioned everything (almost). The problem is where you you look for answers. Hint - the internet is the wrong place. <br />
Monday, March 23, 2009, 5:38:17 PM<br />
– Like – Reply<br />
<br />
happywithhislot <br />
What's wrong with questioning moshe rabennu. <br />
No other field do they kill u for questioning a historical figure. <br />
<br />
Imagine getting stoned for questioning wether einstein was right. Imagine where science would be if it didn't. <br />
Monday, March 23, 2009, 8:50:29 PM<br />
– Like – ReplyG*3http://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6333352338723538012.post-88730568211013151592011-11-28T10:28:00.000-08:002011-11-28T10:28:06.831-08:00How Identities Cloud JudgmentOriginally posted on The Skeptitcher Rebbe<br />
Thursday, December 2, 2010<br />
<a href="http://skeptitcherrebbe.blogspot.com/2010/12/how-identities-cloud-judgement.html">Link</a><br />
<br />
<br />
I recently cam across this article: http://www.paulgraham.com/identity.html and I thought I would share it here.<br />
Keep Your Identity Small<br />
<br />
February 2009<br />
<br />
I finally realized today why politics and religion yield such uniquely useless discussions.<br />
<br />
As a rule, any mention of religion on an online forum degenerates into a religious argument. Why? Why does this happen with religion and not with Javascript or baking or other topics people talk about on forums?<br />
<br />
What's different about religion is that people don't feel they need to have any particular expertise to have opinions about it. All they need is strongly held beliefs, and anyone can have those. No thread about Javascript will grow as fast as one about religion, because people feel they have to be over some threshold of expertise to post comments about that. But on religion everyone's an expert.<br />
<br />
Then it struck me: this is the problem with politics too. Politics, like religion, is a topic where there's no threshold of expertise for expressing an opinion. All you need is strong convictions.<br />
<br />
Do religion and politics have something in common that explains this similarity? One possible explanation is that they deal with questions that have no definite answers, so there's no back pressure on people's opinions. Since no one can be proven wrong, every opinion is equally valid, and sensing this, everyone lets fly with theirs.<br />
<br />
But this isn't true. There are certainly some political questions that have definite answers, like how much a new government policy will cost. But the more precise political questions suffer the same fate as the vaguer ones.<br />
<br />
I think what religion and politics have in common is that they become part of people's identity, and people can never have a fruitful argument about something that's part of their identity. By definition they're partisan.<br />
<br />
Which topics engage people's identity depends on the people, not the topic. For example, a discussion about a battle that included citizens of one or more of the countries involved would probably degenerate into a political argument. But a discussion today about a battle that took place in the Bronze Age probably wouldn't. No one would know what side to be on. So it's not politics that's the source of the trouble, but identity. When people say a discussion has degenerated into a religious war, what they really mean is that it has started to be driven mostly by people's identities.<br />
<br />
Because the point at which this happens depends on the people rather than the topic, it's a mistake to conclude that because a question tends to provoke religious wars, it must have no answer. For example, the question of the relative merits of programming languages often degenerates into a religious war, because so many programmers identify as X programmers or Y programmers. This sometimes leads people to conclude the question must be unanswerable—that all languages are equally good. Obviously that's false: anything else people make can be well or badly designed; why should this be uniquely impossible for programming languages? And indeed, you can have a fruitful discussion about the relative merits of programming languages, so long as you exclude people who respond from identity.<br />
<br />
More generally, you can have a fruitful discussion about a topic only if it doesn't engage the identities of any of the participants. What makes politics and religion such minefields is that they engage so many people's identities. But you could in principle have a useful conversation about them with some people. And there are other topics that might seem harmless, like the relative merits of Ford and Chevy pickup trucks, that you couldn't safely talk about with others.<br />
<br />
The most intriguing thing about this theory, if it's right, is that it explains not merely which kinds of discussions to avoid, but how to have better ideas. If people can't think clearly about anything that has become part of their identity, then all other things being equal, the best plan is to let as few things into your identity as possible.<br />
<br />
Most people reading this will already be fairly tolerant. But there is a step beyond thinking of yourself as x but tolerating y: not even to consider yourself an x. The more labels you have for yourself, the dumber they make you.<br />
I think this article is very insightful and has some very good points. It makes me want to reconsider how I identify myself or at least how the way I identify myself may skew my beliefs.<br />
<br />
However, even if you think you don't identify with a group you may still be falling into the above trap. For example, I am not sure how much of my argument for circumcision has to do with my identity (probably a lot) as well as I am unsure how much other peoples arguments against circumcision has to do with their conceived identities (either as atheists or whatever). It seems to me that people should always be on guard against the traps in our minds that we set for ourselves. You can never be too sure that you are arguing solely on rational grounds and that your personal emotional attachment towards a topic has nothing to do with your positions. <br />
Posted by Skeptitcher Rebbe at 10:23 AM <br />
================================================<br />
4 comments: <br />
<br />
Anonymous said... <br />
I don't identify (much) with Jewishness even though I was born into a Jewish family. As a I get older my identification gets less. But it will probably be there somewhat forever. I don't see it ever going away completely. Somethings are impossible to remove even if you wanted to <br />
December 2, 2010 1:41 PM <br />
<br />
Questioning Yid said... <br />
I found this article quite interesting myself. I am all too familiar with the detrimental effects of identity on parties being able to relate. I have a deep-rooted Jewish identity, but it was formed in a mixed marriage and a predominantly Christian school. As I moved beyond the early stages of being a Ba'al Teshuva, rather quickly I might add, I returned to my identity incorporating my non-religious and non-Jewish background. I disagree with the general idea that any sense of identity is detrimental. It is through our identities that we find others with whom we relate and form friendships, communities, and societies. Perhaps, rather than avoiding things entering our identity, we should instead work to ensure our identities are not just tolerant of others, but are open to differing identities and points of view. We should identify as people interested in getting to know and understand the thoughts and feelings and beliefs and identities of others and welcome them with open arms. I think that is the true step beyond. <br />
December 13, 2010 9:07 AM <br />
<br />
Anonymous said... <br />
The premise of this article is wrong. JavasScript does always lead to an argument.<br />
<br />
Mac vs PC? Yankees vs Redsocks. Apple, Microsoft, Google... all of it. <br />
February 28, 2011 4:49 AM <br />
<br />
MatureDurai said... <br />
"I disagree with the general idea that any sense of identity is detrimental. It is through our identities that we find others with whom we relate and form friendships, communities, and societies. Perhaps, rather than avoiding things entering our identity, we should instead work to ensure our identities are not just tolerant of others, but are open to differing identities and points of view."<br />
Well said,Questioning Yid!Cheers! <br />
August 1, 2011 1:28 AMG*3http://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6333352338723538012.post-36719277415975362792011-11-28T10:26:00.000-08:002011-11-28T10:26:57.331-08:00Circumcision. Should it be banned?Originally posted on The Skeptitcher Rebbe<br />
Sunday, November 28, 2010<br />
<a href="http://skeptitcherrebbe.blogspot.com/2010/11/circumcision-should-it-be-banned.html">Link</a><br />
<br />
I have been having a rather heated discussion with Brian Westley on OTDs blog post about circumcision here.<br />
<br />
While I don't believe that circumcision has any superstitious benefits, I do believe it does have real social ones, namely avoidance of ostracism from within the Jewish community for your child (if you wish to be a part of the Jewish community). Also there isn't a reverse ostracism from outside the Jewish community either (having a circumcision is very common for non Jews as well). Since I don't think that the costs are too significant (mild memoryless pain for a short while, recovery in about a week) I think it should be up to the parents to decide whether or not their son should get one as an infant and shouldn't be banned universally.<br />
<br />
What do you think? <br />
Posted by Skeptitcher Rebbe at 11:28 AM <br />
=============================================<br />
28 comments: <br />
<br />
G*3 said... <br />
I don’t think anything should be banned unless it’s shown to be harmful. Circumcision has not been shown to be harmful, therefore it shouldn’t be banned. <br />
November 28, 2010 12:04 PM <br />
<br />
Bob said... <br />
Male circumcision is a safe, popular, healthy & beneficial procedure for individuals & parents to choose. It provides benefits such as 12x less likely for UTI, +22x less likely for cancer, 28% less risk for herpes, 35% for HPV & 60% for HIV/AIDS. The risks are about 0.2% and are typically minor & easily corrected.<br />
<br />
Parents should research circumcision and make an informed decision for the health & well-being of their son. <br />
<br />
More information can be found at the following sites:<br />
<br />
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision<br />
<br />
http://www.malecircumcision.org/ <br />
<br />
http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/factsheets/circumcision.htm<br />
<br />
http://archpedi.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/164/1/104<br />
<br />
http://www.circinfo.net<br />
<br />
http://www.medicirc.org <br />
November 28, 2010 12:16 PM <br />
<br />
Baruch Spinoza said... <br />
I have a different why I am against banning circumcision. You can read about it here ( http://skepticbutjewish.blogspot.com/2010/11/ban-circumcision.html ). <br />
November 28, 2010 1:50 PM <br />
<br />
Caroline said... <br />
Eliyahu Ungar Sargon made an interesting film on the topic<br />
"Cut: Slicing Through the Myths of Circumcision"<br />
http://cutthefilm.com/Cut_Website/Home.html <br />
November 29, 2010 4:04 PM <br />
<br />
Caroline said... <br />
Also, <br />
<br />
Jewishcircumcision.org<br />
jewsagainstcircumcision.org <br />
November 29, 2010 4:05 PM <br />
<br />
Hugh7 said... <br />
Isn't "avoidance of ostracism" an unworthy motive for cutting part of a child's genitals off? If the community ostracises someone because of something someone else hasn't done to them, shame on that community! Who do they think they are? Let them mind their own business! <br />
<br />
@G*3: How about the fact that a significant number of men hate the fact that it was done to them? More than 70 have signed up for a class action. Apart from certain harm, the risks, from unaesthetic outcomes all the way to loss of the penis and death, go underreported.<br />
<br />
Bob's figures need context. For example, since less than one in 100 boys gets a UTI, by his own figure, 991 circumcisions in 1000 are wasted. His citations are laughably biased.<br />
<br />
#Jewish philosopher: Only for adult volunteers where AIDS is rampant. The protection (even if genuine) is only for infection by men from women, very rare in the US. <br />
<br />
A small but growing number of Jewish parents are choosing to name their sons without surgery. Contact details for celebrants, including a number of rabbis, are here. One, in New York, has celebrated hundreds. <br />
November 29, 2010 6:04 PM <br />
<br />
Skeptitcher Rebbe said... <br />
Hugh7,<br />
<br />
Many people permanently alter the bodies of their children in ways that don't affect the functionality of those bodies, but are done solely for the reason to avoid social ostracism. Such things like altering a deformed ear or nose which funtion totally normally from a medical standpoint but are seen by most in society as being an abnormality.<br />
<br />
I don't see why allowing a parent to alter their minor childs body is acceptable in the above case is acceptable whereas with circumcision doing it for the same reason considered unacceptable. I am willing to change my mind on this, I just haven't been convinced that the differences in either scenario are too far removed or that the effects of circumcision are so negative and harmful to oppose the practice universally. <br />
November 29, 2010 7:34 PM <br />
<br />
Tony said... <br />
Skeptitcher Rebbe,<br />
<br />
The above is acceptable because it is a deformity. The foreskin is not a deformity. It is a normal body part. No one is suggesting that medically necessary circumcision is unacceptable. Proxy consent has validity. But altering a child's healthy body to avoid something that may not happen or may not bother the child is bizarre.<br />
<br />
For example, I have red hair. I was mocked for this throughout childhood (and still am, amusingly). Should my parents have forcibly dyed my hair to save me from this social torment? That's not permanent, either. The correct analogy to circumcision, of course, is for them to continue forcibly changing my hair color now based on their opinion of my body, whether I want it or not. Since I can't undo the circumcision they forced on me.<br />
<br />
Yet, I'm indifferent to the ridicule I receive about my hair. Why should I care what my peers think? They can judge me for being who I am, but that doesn't lessen me in any way. I learned that because I was mocked for who I am. It's a cliche, but the social attacks made me stronger, not weaker.<br />
<br />
As for the effects of circumcision, it's objective harm. It's a surgical alteration that removes healthy tissue and nerves. It creates a wound. It leaves scarring. There is a risk of infection and complications from the surgery. And it alters the functioning of the penis. (An objective claim, unlike the subjective question of whether it's better or worse.)<br />
<br />
Does the individual want any of that? I don't. Why should my parents' misguided, inaccurate perception about my body rule over my (lack of) need while I was in their care? As I said, at 37 years old, it's a decision they're effectively still making for me. Permitting that under proxy consent is flawed. <br />
November 29, 2010 9:22 PM <br />
<br />
Hugh said... <br />
As a common slogan has it, "A foreskin is not a birth defect", and it is very odd to treat it as though it is. (People in the US seem far readier than elsewhere to modify their children for conformity's sake alone, as witness the preoccupation with straight teeth. It may also have to do with the economics of the health care system.) <br />
<br />
Circumcision does affect functionality. I don't imagine you have talked to many intact men in detail about exactly what is conferred by their foreskins. It has been described as "a symphony of sensation" - not just more sensitive, but better sensitive. Cutting off the foreskin, with its ~20,000 nerves specialised for feedback, is like pulling out the accelerator pedal and leaving an on-off switch. You can still get there, but the journey is not as enjoyable.<br />
<br />
Forgotten pain was still pain at the time, and how long does it take to forget? Taddio et al. found circumcised babies react differently to the pain of vaccination, months later. Crimes committed on drugged victims are still crimes, even though they are not remembered. <br />
November 30, 2010 3:59 AM <br />
<br />
Skeptitcher Rebbe said... <br />
But its only considered a deformity by social standards not natural ones. The weird looking ear functions just as well as any other ear. If you are indifferent by the ridicule you receive from your hair, why should you try to alter the shape of the ear so that your son or daughter wont be? If it really makes you stronger why is it altered at all if there is no medically necessary purpose? It is for purely social reasons it is altered so why alter it? Deformity is only something you in your society consider abnormal, what is to stop another society from considering it an acceptable deviation?<br />
<br />
I have heard opposite accounts on how sex life after a person had a circumcision was actually improved. More nerve endings doesn't necessarily mean better sex.<br />
<br />
Sex may or may not be more enjoyable with a foreskin, but for those who have one they will never be able to tell what it is like without it. For those without one (even if it was voluntary) will never be able to go back, so its not really like an individual can compare sex life with and without a foreskin and then choose to have his foreskin. So I don't really see that as a strong argument, since comparisons and decisions based on that comparisons with regards to sex are practically impossible.<br />
<br />
Hugh, I would like to see the study by Taddio if you don't mind. I think that is an interesting factor to take into account, as long as I understand what exactly was tested and what the findings were. <br />
November 30, 2010 10:23 AM <br />
<br />
Skeptitcher Rebbe said... <br />
One more comment, I just don't really agree that circumcisions really are all that harmful. I am beginning to think that the benefits I am describing are not really all that rational.<br />
<br />
But if I were going to try to force my views on my wife and refuse to let her circumcise my son I think I am going to have to have a really convincing argument for the horrible and terribly harmful thing circumcision is, and as of yet I am not convinced that it is. I still see it as a fairly mild operation with very little functional difference in the person. If it wasn't a common practice and my wife didn't insist on its importance I definitely wouldn't do it but as things are now I don't believe my son will be all that upset or resentful, because it really is not such a big deal IMO.<br />
<br />
If I had convincing evidence that showed beyond a reasonable doubt that circumcision is something that truly is harmful to a child then I would reconsider position on it. <br />
November 30, 2010 10:47 AM <br />
<br />
Tony said... <br />
I'm not suggesting I think parents should have surgery on their children if the child has a deformity. I have a family member with a mild birth defect. It hasn't been corrected because there's no need. My only point is that I won't judge parents who face that tough decision for their children. At least they're confronting an abnormality.<br />
<br />
Parents who circumcise their normal children don't face that decision. They're deciding in favor of common at the expense of normal. That's not a valid decision by proxy.<br />
<br />
What is it that's preventing you from seeing the harm of circumcision? I'm genuinely asking because I'd like to persuade you, if you're open to listening. I think you are.<br />
<br />
Circumcision is objective harm. That much is undeniable, as there's a wound after the surgery. I accept that the value of that harm weighed against the claimed benefits is subjective to the individual.<br />
<br />
For me, it's not close. It's a net harm because I don't value the cultural conformity it was meant to confer, and I resent my parents for forcing it on me. But I don't expect that everyone will or should have that opinion. I only expect everyone to understand that anyone could have that opinion. Parents aren't psychic. Imposing their preferences on their child when those preferences do physical harm is wrong because the child may not want the potential, subjective benefits the parents value. <br />
November 30, 2010 4:22 PM <br />
<br />
Skeptitcher Rebbe said... <br />
"What is it that's preventing you from seeing the harm of circumcision?<br />
....<br />
Circumcision is objective harm. That much is undeniable, as there's a wound after the surgery."<br />
<br />
Well I guess the objective harm as being minimal enough for it not to really matter. To me its like parents who choose to pierce their daughters ears as an infant. There is pain and there is permament scarring to the ears. No medical purpose, only for social reasons, and who knows if the child would want their ears pierced.<br />
<br />
I think your arguments are valid, but there are two main reasons I don't feel that the harm is significant enough for me to be universally against the practice.<br />
<br />
1) While there is scarring, it is "normal" scarring in our society and the pain for infants truly is minimal if the procedure is done properly. My son when he was circumcised cried literally no more than a few seconds, the wound healed in a couple of days, and he didn't show any discomfort in that area since the cut was made.<br />
<br />
2) The pain and distress for those who wish to be circumcised later on in life, even a young child a couple years old is very very high, and the healing process takes weeks and sometimes over a month. If my son did decide, at an age where he could consent, that he wanted to be circumcised, to fit in or for other reasons, I would have to put him through a horribly painful procedure. I know of one Jew who is very upset with his parents for not getting him circumcised since he did want to fit in later in life and the procedure was very painful, he said he could barely walk for weeks. I would much rather spare my child of having to make that decision at all and give him a relatively painless memoryless surgery over that scenario.<br />
<br />
There are no guarantees either way and a son could be equally upset with his parents for either not circumcising him, or for circumcising him. Like you said parents aren't psychic and it is impossible to tell what is the likelyhood for either case, but for a Jewish family it is likely to be higher than for a non Jewish one that the child would rather have a circumcision, but there aren't any garuantees.<br />
<br />
For you it was a net harm, for others it could be a net gain. For me it was a net gain, I probably would have been just as pissed at my parents as you are if they hadn't circumcised me since I would have to go through this grueling process which could have easily been avoided as a child. <br />
<br />
Thus I view the decision from the parents perspective to be basically on neutral grounds. There is a possibility it will be a net gain or loss for the child to circumcise, but it is also possible it will be a net gain or loss for the child to not circumcise. Since the likelyhood of all the cases are unknown I don't feel like there is a general net harm to the procedure and I basically view it as net neutral.<br />
<br />
btw I am enjoying this conversation very much and your comments have been very thoughtful and engaging. Thanks. <br />
November 30, 2010 5:44 PM <br />
<br />
Rabbi Lamech Somayach Meshumad Meshubach said... <br />
If you want Jewish boys to avoid HIV keep them away from Rabbi Yehudda Kolko at Yeshiva Torah Temimah in Brooklyn, NY. <br />
December 1, 2010 12:25 AM <br />
<br />
Tony said... <br />
The facts that pain can be minimal (not entirely verifiable) and not remembered aren't relevant. Such reasons could justify any number of invasive procedures on a child. If you numb him up, you could punch him in the face and do less permanent damage than circumcision. It's an intentionally absurd example, of course, but it gets at my point that all of the extraneous factors we wrap into this discussion distract from the core. The act needs to be judged on its objective facts, not the subjective add-ons each of us value in our own way.<br />
<br />
Yes, I think it's likely that a significant number of boys left intact and raised Jewish would want circumcision. I don't see a conflict there. This isn't about despising circumcision, per se. Whatever might motivate someone to choose it for himself is valid for him. I don't think circumcision itself is automatically bad. But force is. This is about each individual retaining choice over his own (healthy) body.<br />
<br />
In economic terms, the basic concept is that all individual tastes and preferences are subjective. I don't value circumcision. I value not being harmed (however minimally one might judge it). I don't value cultural conformity. I don't value the potential health benefits. And so on. That's my collection of preferences. Yours are different and they're no less valid. But each of our preferences are only valid for ourselves.<br />
<br />
Overall statistics show a different story on what males left intact will likely choose or need. The percentage of circumcision among those men is very small. That's useful for the general population.<br />
<br />
But you raise a valid issue within the ritual subset of circumcision. It's necessary to address this. Again, all individual tastes and preferences are subjective. Circumcision has claimed benefits, claimed harms, and objective harms. Each individual can decide for himself how he weights each item. For Jewish males who would have to choose circumcision later in life, they would decide whether they value the commandment and/or social benefits more than the real physical cost(s). If they choose circumcision, yes, the healing process will be challenging, although I've read anecdotal evidence across the spectrum of possible experiences for adult circumcision. (I wouldn't confine the choice to 18+, just consenting males.) But they will be choosing for themselves that the benefits are more than the costs. Males raised Jewish who later reject circumcision or Judaism entirely are stuck with their parents' choice.<br />
<br />
I think our difference is partially in utilitarian (i.e. community) versus individual thinking. I have no issue with decisions for communal reasons, but the individual is superior in the narrative of rights. He must choose permanent inclusion in a community. Without the option to exit, even if he wouldn't exercise it, it's an issue of force.<br />
<br />
The remaining issue is, of course, our evaluation of the objective harm. I think the comparison to ear piercing is useful, but the difference in degree is significant. Ear piercing doesn't remove a normal, healthy body part. It doesn't alter the functioning of a body part. The loss of the foreskin is a significant portion of the harm. Most boys will come out of circumcision with the typical, intended results, and the wound will heal. But the foreskin will be gone. It won't be there to protect the glans. It won't be there to provide gliding action during sexual activities. The nerve endings are gone. Whether or not these are acceptable is, again, unique to the individual. But they are real, and we can't know what the individual will want. <br />
December 1, 2010 11:16 AM <br />
<br />
Skeptitcher Rebbe said... <br />
"Overall statistics show a different story on what males left intact will likely choose or need. The percentage of circumcision among those men is very small. That's useful for the general population."<br />
<br />
Part of the reason that is the case is because the pain involved is tremendous for adults to undertake a circumcision. This is why mild pain in the procedure for an infact is indeed useful information since it is contrasted in relation to the same procedure on an adult where the pain is significantly higher.<br />
<br />
When you don't circumcise an infant who grows up to be an adult who wishes to be circumcised you steal from him the opportunity to have a memoryless and significantly less painful operation to achieve the same results. In my determination the choice that a parent has to circumcise their infant son is a different choice than that an adult has to circumcise himself. He can't choose to have a memoryless, less painful procedure as an infant, that option was only available to his parents who decide whether or not to chose this option for him.<br />
<br />
My preferences are indeed different than yours, but my preferences are as follows in decending order [circumcision as an infant(for myslef)] > [circumcision as an adult] > [No circumcision]<br />
<br />
The likelyhood of my preferences being in line this way was, in my own opinion, rather high seeing as many children from Jewish families do wish to be a part of the Jewish community and in so doing for the most part wish to be circumcised. Their preferences would likely be close to my highest preference, of having my circumcision as an infant.<br />
<br />
But to go even deeper parents are continually given license to decide for their children things that will permanently change and effect their children to a far greater degree than circumcision would. Very often do parents make these decisions for their children based on assumed preferences without the childs consent. Sometimes they get it wrong but many times when the parent is consientious they get it right. Why should this decision be excluded from a parent on the issue of circumcision but not on the countless other more impactful issues such as:<br />
<br />
1) Whether or not they will grow up in a specific religious community or not.<br />
2) Whether they will be in close contact with many relitives, like grandparents, uncles, aunts and cousins or not.<br />
3) What type of education they will receive.<br />
4) What (if any) musical instruments they will learn.<br />
5) What (if any) additional languages they will learn.<br />
6) What sort of nutrition they will receive as children.<br />
7) Whether or not they will be immunized against various diseases.<br />
8) Whether they will be breastfed or bottlefed.<br />
<br />
The list can go on and on. These items permamently affect the child in a much more impactful way than circumcision, most of the time they are done without the childs consent and they are irreversable. The child grows up and is happy with some of the decisions his/her parents made on his/her behalf without his/her consent, sometimes they are unhappy. The same is easily said of circumcision. I am very happy that my parents made the decision that I could never make, to have an infant circumcision, for me. <br />
December 1, 2010 12:44 PM <br />
<br />
Skeptitcher Rebbe said... <br />
Tony, a bunch of your previous comments seem very similar to one another. Did you want me to delete any of them for you. <br />
December 1, 2010 12:51 PM <br />
<br />
Skeptitcher Rebbe said... <br />
I would agree with you for the most part, basically if I believed that the parents choice to circumcies was the same choice as the individuals to circumcise himself, because the significant differences in pain. If the choice was essentially the same (for example using a special dye that permamently changes your hair color) I would agree with you that this decision should not be up to the parents because the choice can just as easily be given to the child when he can consent. The choice between infant circumcision and no circumcision, and the choice between and adult circumcision and no circumcision is are significantly different choices in my determination. The person can't choose to have a circumcision as an infant.<br />
<br />
Also I believe that the impact of having a circumcision vs not having one is minimal, greater than ear piercings no doubt, but still relatively minor compared to most of the more impactful things parents are warranted to do (and rightfully so) to their children without their consent that are also irreversable. <br />
December 1, 2010 1:12 PM <br />
<br />
Tony said... <br />
Yes, please delete them. Google gave me errors for length. I waited and refreshed and nothing showed up, so I assumed they were lost. I apologize for that. <br />
December 2, 2010 11:18 AM <br />
<br />
Tony said... <br />
I agree that the pain involved for adults is a reason why more intact males don't choose circumcision. That supports me. They reveal their preference for avoiding pain more than being circumcised. That's instructive. When you circumcise an infant who grows up to be an adult who wishes to be intact, you steal from him the opportunity to have his normal body and no painful operation. There are opportunity costs on both sides. But only in refraining from non-therapeutic circumcising do you allow every individual to get as close to what he wants as possible.<br />
<br />
The problem is assuming that the pain is mild for an infant or milder than adult circumcision. We don't know how different they are, if at all. It's obvious that infants feel pain. How do they process it? Do they want that? That's not an end to the debate, but it looms much larger when the surgery is not needed. The facts that an intervention can be only mildly painful and memoryless are irrelevant. It doesn't add anything to the discussion of ethics.<br />
<br />
It's also worth noting that adults can receive proper pain management tailored to their response and can choose how much skin to remove (and whether or not to remove the frenulum).<br />
<br />
I concede that most Jewish males left intact would ultimately choose circumcision. I think that percentage would decrease over time, but I accept that it will be a majority for a long time. However, I can't accept that we should ignore the minority to avoid a painful choice for the majority. The majority can still get most of what they value. They also might find that their preference changes from:<br />
<br />
[circumcision as an infant] > [circumcision as an adult] > [No circumcision]<br />
<br />
to:<br />
<br />
[circumcision as an infant] > [No circumcision] > [circumcision as an adult]<br />
<br />
With infant circumcision, the minority can get none of what they value. Even on utilitarian grounds, defending circumcision doesn't work.<br />
<br />
I think your list of options is useful. I agree, there can be a permanent effect, but that isn't guaranteed. For 1-5, those are not permanent. They can be overcome, with a caveat about the potential death of relatives with whom parents forbid contact. Nutrition and breastfeeding matter, and to a large extent, I think interference with those decisions is wrong. As long as the child is not malnourished, it's a parental decision.<br />
<br />
The only item similar is vaccination. It's an intervention, it carries risk, and it's in essence permanent. However, vaccination deals with diseases that have few, if any, better prevention methods. Unlike circumcision and female-to-male HIV transmission, for example, a child can get measles in the course of normal social interaction. More importantly, vaccinations work with the body's natural functions to kick-start it. Circumcision for health (not really our focus) or social reasons works against the body, changing it to meet beliefs. That's the crux of where it differs and why standards for interfering with parental decision-making are different for the two.<br />
<br />
I disagree that these permanently affect the child in a more impactful way. I was sent to church as a child. I've rejected that. (Disclosure: I'm agnostic.) I was given musical lessons for an instrument I didn't want, so I stopped when I could. As an adult, I'm now learning an instrument I like. I was raised an omnivore, and I'm now a vegan. And so on. <br />
December 2, 2010 11:34 AM <br />
<br />
Tony said... <br />
(This is the second half. I'm assuming the first half will show up before this, eventually.)<br />
<br />
I will always be circumcised. And I will always be against it for myself. It can't be overcome. You value circumcision, particularly that it was done to you as an infant. That is correct for you. But your conclusion is not mine, as I know you understand. We all have a basic right to be free from unwanted harm. A person can't choose circumcision in his infancy, but he also can't unchoose a circumcision in his infancy. That's the core fact. Until a child can offer consent, non-therapeutic circumcision is an unethical violation. Proxy consent is invalid.<br />
<br />
There is no corresponding right to grow up* circumcised. Yes, you would have to choose it for yourself, with all of the drawbacks that go with it. Again, that's revealed preferences. It leaves the individual to evaluate and determine his own life. If you value circumcision more, you would suffer for a brief time, but you would ultimately get most of what you want. I will suffer my entire life and never get back any of what I want. I'm stuck with my parents' preference, or at least what they incorrectly assumed I'd want.<br />
<br />
Related: On Monday, you posted Sara Bareilles' "King of Anything". Since I first heard it, that song resonated with me for a parent-child relationship, generally, and circumcision, specifically. For what that's worth...<br />
<br />
* As I stated earlier, with any proposed prohibition on non-therapeutic circumcision of minors, the requirement should not be iron-clad on the age of majority. With the right textual protections against coercion, I'm fine with the individual's consent at whatever age he concludes he wants to be circumcised. <br />
December 2, 2010 11:36 AM <br />
<br />
Skeptitcher Rebbe said... <br />
Tony,<br />
<br />
Thank you for your well thought out and elucidative comments. I will have to chew them over a bit.<br />
<br />
I will give you my initial reaction though. First off I think that the permanancy of all of the choices parents make in my list are in the realm of altering you in regards to your mind not your body in general. You will carry with you the connections you make as a child for the rest of your life. Sure you can learn a new language as an adult, but your mental skills will never be able to improve as much as if you had learned it as a child. I do believe that experiences you have as a child will alter your mental state for the rest of your life, either for good or for bad, and I believe a altering a persons mental state is more impactful to their life than the body altering of a circumcision.<br />
<br />
I just simply haven't been convinced that I should universally reject this practice. I think that if I were to agree with your logic, which I think is very reasonable, I would also have to universally reject the practice of infant ear piercings (IEP). It seems to me that you wouldn't reject IEP because of the scale of harm done in your determination is not significant (correct me if I am wrong). I can't see how IEP are different than infant circumcisions in any other way. If the scale of harm done can be a determining factor in whether or not one should reject a procedure of this kind (and I think it is) then I am simply not convinced that the scale of harm is significant enough for me to oppose it. I would oppose other similar procedures whose harm I consider too significant to allow (such as cutting off a childs arm or tattooing disgusting images to a childs face) and I would not oppose practices I don't consider significantly harmful (like IEP, or a small tattoo on an inconspicuous part of an infants body assuming doing so doesn't make the child look abnormal, or circumcision).<br />
<br />
As you said earlier:<br />
<br />
"The remaining issue is, of course, our evaluation of the objective harm. I think the comparison to ear piercing is useful, but the difference in degree is significant"<br />
<br />
Who gets to decide where to draw that line of where the degree of significance lies? I think it is hard to tell where it does and circumcision may be close to where that line gets hazy or it may not. I still am unsure about it being ok but I am also not convinced that it is unethical. <br />
December 2, 2010 12:07 PM <br />
<br />
Tony said... <br />
"... You will carry with you the connections you make as a child for the rest of your life. ..."<br />
<br />
I don't want to give the impression that I disagree with that. I probably did, since I was nonchalant on discarding some of my parents' decisions. I do carry the connections. We're all a collection of our experiences, not just the ones we like/choose/etc. Is it better to say "reduce the permanence" or "lessen the effect" of past parental decisions, or something like that? I still think that's different from circumcision, since I can't undo any of its effects.<br />
<br />
Regarding IEP, I think parents shouldn't do it. It carries risk of infection. The incidence is rare but awful when it occurs. I think it treats children like dress-up dolls rather than children. Parents aren't considering that their children will one day be independent people with their own preferences. I've met women who wish their parents hadn't pierced their ears. Not many, but they exist. (Like circumcision, it should be allowed when there's consent, not the age of majority.)<br />
<br />
As for a prohibition, it's tricky. I'd support it, and I think it's justified. But it's not a battle I'm interested in fighting, precisely because the difference between it and non-therapeutic circumcision is significant.<br />
<br />
Drawing a line on significance is about objective facts. I think the line has both on the same side, against. If it's somewhere between the two, it's not so much about where that line is or who decides, but why it's drawn between them. Ear piercing affects a normal body part and exposes the recipient to some risk. Circumcision removes a normal body part, denying aspects of the human experience to the individual.<br />
<br />
I respect your need to ponder our discussion and will not try to convince you further. We've hit the bulk of the discussion, anyway. I obviously hope my position will eventually convince you. Regardless, I commend you for thinking. I rarely encounter anyone who supports proxy consent for non-therapeutic circumcision who is willing to think. Most proponents already "know" everything (i.e. a subset of facts with many errors) they need to know. Thank you for being decent. <br />
December 3, 2010 11:30 AM <br />
<br />
Skeptitcher Rebbe said... <br />
Tony,<br />
<br />
I have really enjoyed all of your comments. I commend you for your consistency and I think your reasoning is totally sound. Like I said earlier I will have to dwell on this some more before I can make a decision, but you have given me a lot to think about, and who knows I may very well oppose this practice in the future. But like all things I think all people should take their time with developing their beliefs and should do so with the utmost care, which I can see you have done with your position on circumsision. <br />
<br />
I don't think I have really anything more to say on the subject either. Again thank you for the engaging conversation and for visiting and reading my blog. I really do appreciate it and love discussing difficult issues like this with open minded, thoughtful and respectful people such as yourself.<br />
<br />
Take care and have a wonderful winter season. <br />
December 3, 2010 11:49 AM <br />
<br />
Questioning Yid said... <br />
How delightfully refreshing to see a thoughtful and respectful dialog between opposing parties on a hot-button topic that never devolved into puerile and pugnacious exchanges. Thank you both for restoring a bit of my faith in humanity and true discourse! <br />
December 13, 2010 9:20 AM <br />
<br />
Jasmine said... <br />
I'm against it for a very simple reason: bodily autonomy, which I consider sacrosanct (as far as an atheist can, anyway). People (and that includes infants) have the absolute right to decide what gets done to their bodies. Since an infant obviously can't make such a decision, the only ethical procedures are critical, life-saving ones. Others must wait until they are old enough to decide on their own. Surely that's not too much to ask?<br />
<br />
Suppose it were considered socially important to give an infant a giant facial tattoo that marks them out forever, regardless of their later wishes. What would we make of that?<br />
<br />
With the case of the deformed ear, again we must wait. Perhaps the child will not consider it so bad after all. Perhaps in the future such things will be accepted. Perhaps in the future there will be better ways to fix it. Who knows? Not us.<br />
<br />
I submit that parents who surgically modify their children without permission are placing their own social discomfort over the wellbeing of their child. <br />
December 20, 2010 12:07 PM <br />
<br />
Balboa said... <br />
I don't think circ should be banned for adults who choose to do it for themselves. I do think parents should not have unnecessary surgeries done on infants. especially not in synagogues with parties and smiles while the infant cries for help. I relented and had it done for my son after about a month because it would have cost me my marriage and my kids didn't deserve that. <br />
December 26, 2010 3:08 AMG*3http://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6333352338723538012.post-79494045161555654492011-11-28T10:25:00.000-08:002011-11-28T10:25:05.536-08:00Oy Oy ShabbosOriginally posted on Divrei Acher<br />
Saturday, June 6, 2009<br />
<a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/06/oy-oy-shabbos.html">Link</a><br />
<br />
<br />
Over Shabbos, two things got me thinking.<br />
First, when we say during Hagbah:<br />
וְזֹאת, הַתּוֹרָה, אֲשֶׁר-שָׂם מֹשֶׁה, לִפְנֵי בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל עַל-פִּי יְהוָה בְּיַד-מֹשֶׁה<br />
the first part of the sentence being from Deuteronomy 4:44, and the second from Numbers 9:23, I thought: is this the best we came up with for expressing that the whole Torah was given to Moshe by God? The answer is yes, because for those who know, it doesn't state anywhere in the Chumash that God relayed all of it to Moshe, so yes, this Mishmash Posuk is the best we came up with for stating what the Torah itself is conspicuously missing. Which lead me to think: did I have to get this far to realize this. Why didn't I notice that we say this Mishmash sentence because we've got nothing better, five, ten years ago. I also knew that this is a composite Posuk, but I never thought, why, why nothing better. Unfortunately, the truth is that we usually don't think straight, especially when we're brought up to simply follow what we're taught. This is why I usually don't explain what brought me to my Apikorsus to those not familiar with the issues, and what I tell the same people when they say: do you think you're smarter than RSH"I, RMB"M or whomever. And, Ein Hachi Nami, I'm not. But in order to realize the Chulent your in, you have to look at it from outside. It only takes one peak, but that one peak makes an immeasurable difference.<br />
<br />
The second thing was when the Rav spoke for the Aufruf there, and he asked what's the origin of the Brochoh given to the newlyweds "בית נאמן בישראל"? He answered that the source comes from Abigail who beseeched David saying: "Forgive, I pray thee, the trespass of thy handmaid;<br />
כִּי עָשֹׂה-יַעֲשֶׂה יְהוָה לַאדֹנִי בַּיִת נֶאֱמָן for the LORD will certainly make my lord a sure house."<br />
Now the meaning of this wish as far as I know is either that the couple should build a faithful house in Israel, meaning faithful to the Jewish faith. Or that one should have a בית נאמן a faithful household, בית taking on the meaning as in ביתו זו אשתו. The real story behind David and Abigail is actually not very veiled in the text of Shmuel, and it tells a story that is the farthest thing from faithfulness. Although he probably is correct, that the phrase originates from there, but this is a good example of projecting contemporary imagery onto very different people from the past. <br />
POSTED BY ACHER AT 10:00 PM <br />
=========================================<br />
5 COMMENTS: <br />
<br />
Baal Habos said... <br />
Nice, nice. <br />
<br />
But<br />
<br />
>It only takes one peak, but that one peak makes an immeasurable difference.<br />
<br />
I'm not sure about that. It takes lots of peaks, but there is the peak that breaks the camel's back. <br />
JUNE 7, 2009 8:16 AM <br />
<br />
Acher said... <br />
True, I was referring to that one all important peek, the one that breaks the camels back. In my life, it was the foray into biblical criticism, and it was that one peak, more than any other one thing. <br />
JUNE 7, 2009 12:04 PM <br />
<br />
Avi said... <br />
Please dont make me think about it. It's too depressing....Avi <br />
JUNE 11, 2009 2:40 PM <br />
<br />
He Who Fights Monsters said... <br />
Let me put it to you this way: <br />
<br />
What's more troubling - that evidence of Noah's flood doesn't seem to exist, or that the flood story was imported from Sumerian mythology? <br />
JUNE 14, 2009 2:40 AM <br />
<br />
Acher said... <br />
I don't understand why either would be troubling, it's not a personal matter, it's a question of historical accuracy. <br />
JUNE 16, 2009 2:01 PMG*3http://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6333352338723538012.post-65633510152490751172011-11-28T10:24:00.000-08:002011-11-28T10:24:01.500-08:00Hechsher on What??Originally posted on Divrei Acher<br />
Friday, May 7, 2010<br />
<a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2010/05/hechsher-on-what.html">Link</a><br />
<br />
We've come beyond the threshold of absurdity even for Charedi shenanigans. It seems that it has become Assuer to own any stocks, lest they be involved in Chillul Shabbos or other Halacha compromising activities.<br />
http://www.vosizneias.com/54954/2010/05/06/tel-aviv-badatz-new-ruling-forbids-charedim-to-invest-in-any-stocks<br />
But wait! This is not all. The Gedoilim always have a Refuah Kodem L'Makoh. So there are Hechsherim for ETFs and bonds etc.<br />
And so the contest is on! Who can correctly predict the next thing to be Assur. The winner gets to monopolize the Hechsher ensuing from that Issur. <br />
POSTED BY ACHER AT 12:34 AM <br />
====================================<br />
6 COMMENTS: <br />
<br />
G*3 said... <br />
That's brilliant. I wish I'd thought of it.<br />
<br />
It just goes to show, even in a down economy there are opportunities for those who think outside the box. <br />
MAY 7, 2010 12:51 AM <br />
<br />
Undercover Kofer said... <br />
Maybe this will allow people from the Eidah Charedis to get some higher education (Business MA or so) in order to give out hech-share-im ;) <br />
MAY 7, 2010 3:24 AM <br />
<br />
Baal Habos said... <br />
Whiskey?<br />
<br />
http://yudelstake.blogspot.com/2010/05/alert-no-whisky-should-be-used-without.html <br />
MAY 7, 2010 2:44 PM <br />
<br />
Acher said... <br />
BHB,<br />
<br />
Presto, grab the lead in this market before it's too late, it could be a lucrative opportunity.... just look at Kedem's strong arm tactics..... they can def bve applied tp the whiskey business as well.... <br />
MAY 7, 2010 5:22 PM <br />
<br />
Lady-Light said... <br />
או-או-שכחתי להחליף מעברית לאנגלית<br />
Sorry about that. <br />
<br />
Here's a good one: having a label on fish or chicken (or for that matter, matzah meal) which says "glatt."<br />
<br />
The word has come to mean "mehadrin meha-mehadrin," not 'smooth' in lung-checking, as it originally meant.<br />
Go figure: it's the chumra of the week club. <br />
OCTOBER 1, 2010 3:57 PMG*3http://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6333352338723538012.post-12318880418720258302011-11-28T10:22:00.000-08:002011-11-28T10:22:53.034-08:00Kefira - Like a hole in the headOriginally posted on Baal Habos<br />
20 JUNE 2006<br />
http://baalhabos.blogspot.com/2006_06_01_archive.html<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
I once had a rebbi in Beis Medrash, who often stated that Kefira Material, anything that contradicts the Torah, is like a hole in the head. Get exposed to it, even accidentally, and you've damaged your brain with a tiny hole, spiritually speaking that is. Do it often enough and you've got hundreds of holes; effectively you're damaged goods. Not that the Torah is false (CH"VSH), just that you as an individual are no longer capable of resisting the falsehoods of the world.<br />
<br />
I knew instantly that he was right. When I was a mere stripling of 12, I took out this interesting looking book from the library, "God is an astronaut". It tries to demonstrate thru various events in Tanach, that God, as we experienced him, was really an astronaut from another planet. For example, the desciption of the Chayos in the Maase Merkava could resemble a spacecraft. Layouts of the pyramid were really landmarks for alien aircraft. Ancient roads were landing strips for aircraft. The deaths of Nadav & Avihu Bhakrivam aish zara was due to electricity. That's how there were "burnt" without any external markings. There were hundreds of interesting tidbits like that, most of which I can't remember the details. It is considered a flawed work of pseudo science, but it makes for fascinating reading.<br />
<br />
I felt this was gibberish, but it always left a slight impact on me that maybe what happened back in bibilical times was really the result of an encounter with a more sophisticated culture.<br />
<br />
<br />
Later, personal encounters by me with real science and history was more than enought to leave me with serious doubt as to the accuracy of Torah Misinai as we know it.<br />
<br />
This brings me to individuals like Lakewood Yid, Chardal and others who hang around GH blog. I just can't see how they can escape the Kefira holes that my Rebbi warned me of. I wish them lots of luck, cause they'll need it. <br />
<br />
================================================================<br />
<br />
29 Comments<br />
Close this window Jump to comment form <br />
The back of the hill said...<br />
Ah, the conflict between truth and fact.<br />
<br />
It's all true. But none of it is factual.<br />
June 20, 2006 2:03 PM<br />
Baal Habos said...<br />
Welcome back, BOTH.<br />
<br />
> It's all true. <br />
<br />
Yes, thats what the mean by Torah True Judaism.<br />
June 20, 2006 2:21 PM<br />
Avi said...<br />
So what is the problem? They will have so many holes in their brain, that they will become holy. Isent that what they want? Avi<br />
June 20, 2006 3:46 PM<br />
Baal Habos said...<br />
Avi, very cute! (and ain't that the whole truth).<br />
June 20, 2006 5:27 PM<br />
Moshe Kappoya said...<br />
BH,<br />
I've come to the same conclusion, which why I feel I must say goodbye.<br />
Hatzlocha!<br />
June 20, 2006 5:33 PM<br />
Baal Habos said...<br />
MK, if you're a maamin, then please do yourself a favor and stay away.<br />
June 20, 2006 5:38 PM<br />
Moshe Kappoya said...<br />
BH,<br />
My soul weeps for you. <br />
A short personal anecdote if I may.<br />
When in my teens, I rebelled against my religious upbringing and began to "slip away". Not long after, my uncle passed away on Yom Kippur. At the funeral another uncle told this story about the deceased.<br />
During WWII when the Nazis ym"s occupied Hungary he decided to "hide" amongst the goyim there. Being a wealthy man, he was able to dress the part of a "gentleman" and move about the town freely. One day he met a shiksa that recognized him. She told him that if he did not marry her, she would report him to the Nazis. He refused and was deported to one of the camps. He survived and eventually came to NY.<br />
After hearing this I thought to myself, here was a man who could have lived very comfortably, but instead choose to go through hell rather then betray his religion. And so too for the past 2000 years my ancestors have willingly submitted to torture and death to stay true to Hashem's Torah. And I was going to be the SOB to break the chain?!? <br />
<br />
I will pray that you find your way back.<br />
June 22, 2006 10:32 AM<br />
Baal Habos said...<br />
MK, Thanks.<br />
<br />
My soul weeps for me as well. However, I'm not breaking any chains or Halacha. Except possibly belief. Nuch 120, if God takes me to task for that, I can't help that. I can only control my actions. The Gemara Said Lo uvdo Avoda Zara ella Lhatir Lahem aroyos. I haven't been matir any Arayos.<br />
<br />
That being said, past ancestral or personal sacrifice is not reason to have emuna either. It may appeal to your emotions but it does not follow logically.<br />
<br />
During early Christianity days, Christians were thrown to the lions by the Romans for being Christian. That doesn't prove the Christians are correct, right?<br />
<br />
What was it in your teens that led you to rebel? Intellectual or Emotional reasons? I'm willing to bet it was emotional, i.e. friends, taava, bad teacher , etc.<br />
<br />
That's very typical of teenagers and adults as well.<br />
<br />
I think you are making emotional decisions, which is not necessarily bad. You'll certainly have a clear conscience as it relates to Yiddishkeit.<br />
June 22, 2006 12:24 PM<br />
Moshe Kappoya said...<br />
However, I'm not breaking any chains or Halacha. Except possibly belief. Nuch 120, if God takes me to task for that, I can't help that. I can only control my actions.<br />
I think you may not realize the severity of denying one of the 13 ikrim. And yes, we are expected to control our thoughts and desires. Remember "Lo Sachmod"?<br />
<br />
As for myself, yes initially it was an emotional decision. But I can honsetly say that today I believe because it is obvious to me. <br />
<br />
With faith, there are no questions; without faith, there are no answers.<br />
<br />
Yisroel Meir Hakohen (1838-1933)<br />
June 22, 2006 3:16 PM<br />
Baal Habos said...<br />
MK, Firstly the 13 Ikkarim are debatable. I even heard my Rav say it; he's a regular Chareidi Rav who is quite well known. There are other versions such as 7 Ikkarim or 3 Ikkarim or possibly even one Ikkar. These were promulgated by other Rishonim. It's just the Rambam's Ikkarim became well known. Secondly, a requirement to "believe" just makes no sense. What if you don't? You can't be forced to believe something if you don't.<br />
<br />
If I tell you that you must believe the sky is green, you only believe it it you believe. <br />
<br />
You can profess belief, but that doesn't mean you do.<br />
<br />
I tried to pre-empt some of this in my comment to you before about Lo Uvdo Avoda Zara.<br />
<br />
This is a famous kashia, how can one be forced to believe. In yeshiva we learned that really everyone believes but they fool themselves into not believing because they really don't want to believe in order to be Matir Arayos. <br />
<br />
Well there are many who have lots of doubt and would wish that it were true, yet still are not Matir Arayos. etc. <br />
<br />
<br />
> Remember "Lo Sachmod"?<br />
<br />
<br />
Agreed, once you believe then controlling your desires and envies is do-able. <br />
<br />
<br />
> With faith, there are no questions; without faith, there are no answers.<br />
<br />
<br />
Possibly, but that doesn't mean the faith is true either. The same motto can be said of other religions.<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
Hmmmm. I would have hoped that I'd attract other people in by boat. I'm not looking to try to convince believers of anything. But I'll gladly defend my skepticism to anyone.<br />
June 22, 2006 5:04 PM<br />
Moshe Kappoya said...<br />
FYI,<br />
I think you'll find this interesting...<br />
http://hassid.blogspot.com/2005/10/end.html<br />
June 23, 2006 1:39 PM<br />
Baal Habos said...<br />
I read it and it does not do much for me. I really don't feel I need to do any teshuva for many reasons. At least not any more than your typical Baal Habos needs to do Teshuva.<br />
<br />
An interesting point though is Mitoch Shlo Lshmuh. It does say about Torah, Meoros Shebah Machzirin Lmutav - As long as you're not learning Lekantair. <br />
<br />
And I believe thats true, the more you learn the more "religious" you will be. That's no different than someone who reads science books all day, will become more intellectual.<br />
<br />
There was a period when I recognized that I was learning exactly Lekantair. So for around 4 years I stopped learning. I'm over that now and I'm back to a daily dose of learning. At least it keeps me connected. <br />
<br />
So tell me, how wacky is that for someone who pretty convinced about the non historicity of TMS ?<br />
<br />
Good Shabbos.<br />
June 23, 2006 4:20 PM<br />
<br />
Pinchas Giller said...<br />
The "kefirah holes" sounds close to R. Nachman Breslaver's famous "Torah of the Void" (Likkutei Moharan 64); the astronaut thing sounds like Erikh Von Danekin's "Chariots of the Gods."<br />
<br />
This all must have filtered down to you wherever you were.<br />
<br />
It seems that the frum world is very 2 dimensional and shies away from complexity or paradox in the objects of their belief.<br />
<br />
You said:<br />
<br />
"..serious doubt as to the accuracy of Torah MiSinai as we know it."<br />
<br />
But maybe you knew it with insufficient subtlety.<br />
June 27, 2006 1:18 AM<br />
Baal Habos said...<br />
Pinchas,<br />
<br />
You are possibly correct about the book being Chariots of the Gods. When I wrote this post, I went looking searching for a book entitled God is an Astronaut and came up empty. But, thats the title as I remember "reading it" many years ago, so that's what I went with.<br />
<br />
The other incident are verbatim words from a revered recently deceased Litvishe Maggid shiur. <br />
<br />
I don't think R' Breslav or Von Daniken's neccesarilly had copyrights on their respective ideas. <br />
<br />
No subtlety? That's funny. <br />
<br />
<br />
Anyhow, what I find realy interesting, is that commenters often post on ancillary issues, somehow missing the point of the post. Maybe it's my writing. Or possibly, if I re-arrange your sentences, your'e disagreeing with the Kefira holes issue by saying that people should be able to live with the dichotomy of ideas. Well, I tell you that LY does not live with the dichotomy, because he simply rejects science and anything that threatens to conflict with with cocoon. Which is not bad. But one day, something may crack and he'll really be in deep doo-doo.<br />
<br />
I'll post about subtlety in the future.<br />
June 27, 2006 9:02 AM<br />
PInchas Giller said...<br />
No, all I meant was that Torah mi-Sinai may be more complex, in its reality, than the simplistic view. And, I apologize, when I said "you" I meant the 2nd person plural, as in Torah mi-Sinai as taught to the masses. I think that the idea is full of mysteries and paradoxes, myself.<br />
<br />
And your writing is quite fine, it is my thought processes that are erratic.<br />
<br />
There was a point, in the popular culture, when there was a theme that Aliens were going to come & bequeath humankind with knowledge. "Close encounters," "ET" it was even parodied by Woody Allen. Lately the aliens in movies all seem to be malevolent. It's a nastier decade.<br />
June 27, 2006 8:23 PM<br />
Baal Habos said...<br />
Pinchas, no apologies necessary either way. Unfortunately my upbringing (chareidi-lite)does not really provide for a complex TMS. And true Chareidi has no leeway at all.<br />
<br />
See any good movies lately? I can't even recall the last time we (the wife & I) went to a movie or even rented something. I settle for Seinfeld reruns and borrowed Sopranos. IMO, The early Sopranos were the best thing out on the tube. Ever.<br />
June 27, 2006 11:12 PM<br />
lakewoodyid said...<br />
BHB,<br />
<br />
Please explain:<br />
<br />
Da Mah She'tashiv L'apikores.<br />
June 28, 2006 11:48 PM<br />
Anonymous said...<br />
my intention was the first words not the last word<br />
June 29, 2006 1:05 AM<br />
Baal Habos said...<br />
> Da Mah She'tashiv L'apikores. <br />
<br />
LY, it certainly does not mean going surfing the web LOOKING for apikorsim.<br />
<br />
You have strayed from your own characterization of your blogging as defending anti Chareidi posting. Now you're doing mundane postings about Flip Flops in shul. Your web charisma is carrying you away.<br />
June 29, 2006 9:53 AM<br />
Baal Habos said...<br />
> Anonymous said... <br />
my intention was the first words not the last word <br />
<br />
<br />
Anon, sorry, I don't know who you are and what you're referring to.<br />
June 29, 2006 9:56 AM<br />
lakewoodyid said...<br />
>LY, it certainly does not mean going surfing the web LOOKING for apikorsim.<br />
<br />
You're avoiding my question. You said Kefirah make spiritual holes in the brain.<br />
<br />
The Mishna says we should know what to answer. We can only answer if we read their position. <br />
<br />
How could the Mishna allow it if it creates holes?<br />
<br />
(Hint, see the mefarshim on the mishna in Avos perek 2)<br />
June 29, 2006 12:21 PM<br />
lakewoodyid said...<br />
>> Anonymous said... <br />
my intention was the first words not the last word <br />
<br />
>Anon, sorry, I don't know who you are and what you're referring to. <br />
<br />
Sorry about that one. Blogging from a treo is a pain.<br />
<br />
I was simply trying to say that although I quoted the Mishna - "L'apikores", I was not refering that term on anyone.<br />
June 29, 2006 12:23 PM<br />
lakewoodyid said...<br />
>Now you're doing mundane postings about Flip Flops in shul. Your web charisma is carrying you away. <br />
<br />
I'm fully entitled to express my right wing views. As much as your entitled to express your doubts.<br />
<br />
And standing before God "nisht koveh'dig" is not a mundane matter to me.<br />
June 29, 2006 12:38 PM<br />
Baal Habos said...<br />
LY, <br />
<br />
> How could the Mishna allow it if it creates holes?<br />
<br />
That was not my Vort, it was from a very chushoov Maggid Shiur. I will try to research it the Inyun. I sincerely doubt it means actively engage in conversation with Apikorsim unless forced into it. It probably means Study Tanach and Gemora well so in case you get into the position where you are forced to confront an Apikores you will know how to respond. <br />
<br />
Yes, you certainly are entitled to blog on what you wish, but I remember you saying your charter is to defend against anti-chared sentiment, right?<br />
June 29, 2006 3:21 PM<br />
lakewoodyid said...<br />
>Yes, you certainly are entitled to blog on what you wish, but I remember you saying your charter is to defend against anti-chared sentiment, right? <br />
<br />
Gotta sometimes take offence too.<br />
June 29, 2006 5:30 PM<br />
Baal Habos said...<br />
> Gotta sometimes take offence too.<br />
<br />
LY, as long as you don't <br />
"take offence" :)<br />
<br />
Good Shabbos.<br />
June 29, 2006 11:42 PM<br />
happywithhislot said...<br />
BHB<br />
Many people believe orthodoxy is the only way to preserve the jews.<br />
I agree.<br />
That doesnt mean that privately you cant have brain.<br />
I think youre accomplishing both.<br />
Youre saving orthodoxy, and saving your brain.<br />
Double schar.<br />
Hashem gave us sechel and rabboonim.<br />
Those two are mutually exclusive a lot of the times.<br />
I believe they are becuase when you make the leap to all faith, you have no sechel. Its not a bad thing. We need our standard bearers. Doesnt mean they arent smart or wise.<br />
July 07, 2006 1:27 PMG*3http://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6333352338723538012.post-81756588354537557052011-11-28T10:21:00.000-08:002011-11-28T10:21:14.031-08:00You Skeptics think you're so smart!Originally posted on Baal Habos<br />
08 MARCH 2009<br />
http://baalhabos.blogspot.com/2009_03_01_archive.html<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
Or some other variant thereof. <br />
<br />
Such as "And you know better than all the Gedolim??!"<br />
<br />
Rabbi Gil Student states here <br />
You think you're the smartest and most unbiased person on the planet. That may or may not be so, but I'm not going to set aside my judgment for yours.<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
It happens to be that I did grow thinking I was smart. After all I overheard my mother telling a friend, "My little BHB must be brilliant, he got a 95 on his IQ Test!"<br />
<br />
Well, as it turns out for once the believers got it right. The Gedolim are way smarter than us skeptics.<br />
<br />
Michael Shermer tells us about Planck's Problem, after physicist Max Planck, who made this observation on what must happen for innovation to occur in science: " <br />
An important scientific innovation rarely makes its way by gradually winning over and converting its opponents: it rarely happens that Saul becomes Paul. What does happen is that its opponents gradually die out and that the growing generation is familiarized with the idea from the beginning" <br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
And he states further :<br />
Psychologist David Perkins conducted an interesting correlational study in which he found a strong positive correlation between intelligence (measured by a standard IQ test) and the ability to give reasons for taking a point of view and defending that position; he also found a strong negative correlation between intelligence and the ability to consider other alternatives. That is, the higher the IQ, the greater the potential for ideological immunity. Ideological immunity is built into the scientific enterprise, where it functions as a filter against potentially overwhelming novelty."<br />
<br />
<br />
It seems it's the smart ones who are able to cook up all sorts of tangled and intricate answers to defend their existing positions. It's the smart ones who are able to create Toras Lukshin to avoid confronting new truths<br />
<br />
So, Rabboisai, there you have it. I agree, I'm NOT so smart after all. <br />
<br />
A freilichen Purim.G*3http://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6333352338723538012.post-23744068692706214602011-10-09T14:34:00.001-07:002011-10-09T14:34:59.868-07:00I love my Wife!Originally posted on The Skeptitcher Rebbe<br />
Thursday, November 4, 2010<br />
<a href="http://skeptitcherrebbe.blogspot.com/2010/11/i-love-my-wife.html">Link</a><br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
My wife is the best. I just can't get over how damn lucky I am to have her. I know that changing your worldview from frumkeit is hard and can be very depressing, but for me so far I have been able to handle it pretty well because of her.<br />
<br />
She is still frum and doesn't yet know that my view points on Yiddishkeit and religion in general have changed so drastically, but when I speak to her about more OTD type topics she is always very understanding and insightful. She always thinks her views through and never falls back into some of the nonsensical arguments I hear from many frummies.<br />
<br />
Not only that but many times she comes home with her own complaints and criticisms of Yiddishkeit. They are honest criticisms and although she tries to see it from anothers perspective, if it is ridiculous she points it out and isn't afraid to challenge it. She is intelligent, thoughtful, determined, caring, understanding, nurturing, dedicated and extremly beautiful.<br />
<br />
I am reminded of a time earlier in my life while I was beginning to become frum. It came to the point where I desperately wanted to be seperated from her since she wasn't Jewish at the time and wasn't really interested in an Orthodox conversion. It was very hard for us, and I didn't want to deal with the stress of it, especially knowing I was sinning by dating a non Jew. We ended up breaking up for a couple of months before we got back together again. I just keep wondering what would have happened had I met and married another girl, maybe FFB or something. I couldn't imagine what a mistake that would have been.<br />
<br />
I was such a moron for even putting her through all of that hardship and for what really. I regret it yet it brought us closer in a way and now I am in a great relationship with her so I guess it wasn't all that bad.<br />
<br />
I still am unsure how she would take the idea of me not believing anymore though. I am glad that we have a good relationship with her family though, and since we got back together after our seperation I have always made a point of making sure that family should come first, even above religion. I think that is mainly what has made it work for us really well. <br />
<br />
Before we got back together she told me that she didn't want to be second in my life. She asked that she be set before my faith, before G-d. At the time I was very upset she would ask something like that from me. How could I put my love for G-d behind anything? Anyone? Isn't loving G-d the most important thing?<br />
<br />
It took me some time, but after our seperation I realized that she really was very important to me. She gave me purpose, pushed me to be better, and most of all was there for me, was really there for me. Not only that but I wanted to be there for her. I wanted her to be happy. I wanted her to be safe. I came to the conclusion that I really would put her before G-d and my faith.<br />
<br />
I think that it is vital to put your family before your faith. Otherwise you will end up putting them through so much negativity for the sake of something that really isn't so important. I have known of a man who went off the derech and left his wife and children, totally abandoned them, and for what? I have the same amount of disdain for that person as I would for a person who rejected their own children for being gay or going off the derech or whatever.<br />
<br />
People should really get their priorities straight and know that there are people out there who you really should dedicate your life to, and as a plus they actually exist. <br />
Posted by Skeptitcher Rebbe at 1:25 PM <br />
========================<br />
12 comments: <br />
<br />
Yossi said... <br />
Interesting post. I have been dealing with faith issues of my own. I have been posting at the Richard Dawkins site. Many of the people there, including Dawkins, have suggested that I "come out" to my family, reagrdless of the cost to them. I have made it clear to those people that no matter what my "faith" I will not destroy my family just to make a philosophical point. <br />
November 4, 2010 3:05 PM <br />
<br />
no one said... <br />
Very insightful post <br />
November 4, 2010 3:13 PM <br />
<br />
Skeptitcher Rebbe said... <br />
I can definitely see your point. It is a very delicate issue and for many atheists outside of the frum community it is kind of hard for them to understand what it is really like going OTD in the frum community.<br />
<br />
I wouldn't necessarily take their advice unless they were in a similar situation as you are in.<br />
<br />
I like Dawkins a lot, but sometimes I think he may go just a tad overboard. I beleive that he thinks there is nothing good about hiding your atheism from certain people, and I think he has a point in that the atheistic community in order to gain strength needs more people coming out of the closet. But there are always options to weigh and everyones situation is different and those different circumstances need to be taken into consideration. <br />
<br />
I would say take your time. It is a big life changing decision and there is no reason you should rush into anything.<br />
<br />
I plan on taking my time. <br />
November 4, 2010 3:19 PM <br />
<br />
Skeptitcher Rebbe said... <br />
no one,<br />
<br />
Thanks, I am glad you enjoyed it. <br />
November 4, 2010 3:21 PM <br />
<br />
ki sarita said... <br />
Many people do not leave their families voluntarily when they go OTD- they are forced out for just expressing their thoughts, rejected by the people who supposedly loved them, not the other way around. <br />
November 7, 2010 11:47 PM <br />
<br />
Skeptitcher Rebbe said... <br />
Ki sarita,<br />
<br />
Oh I agree 100%. I was just explaining one situation where this is not the case. For the most part I would say that OTDers are very good people, but there a few OTDers who I wouldn't mind giving a kick in the tuchos to. <br />
November 8, 2010 1:35 AM <br />
<br />
Anonymous said... <br />
Skeptitcher and Ki sarita,<br />
<br />
I have personally witnessed both tragedies and am aware of many cases in each category. It is never pleasant, but the best cases always involve the family being supportive of the OTDer, and the OTDer being supportive of the continued religiosity of the others. I have been blessed with a best friend, chevrusa, and a full support network who are all wonderful and understanding. We are respectful and accepting of each other. I still cook for them (I know kashrus better than most of my friends), and they still invite me for Shabbos. You are lucky to have such a wonderful wife, and I hope she will be as supportive as my friends have been. And maybe I'll be lucky enough to one day find someone as amazing as her to share my life with. <br />
November 8, 2010 2:44 AM <br />
<br />
Baal Habos said... <br />
After much torment, I came out to my wife. It worked out better than in my wildest dreams. She was very understanding of what I had been going through, and after 3 or 4 years, without any pushing on my part, she came around totally to my way of thinking. All I did was expose to some of the literature I had been reading, science, philosophy, bibilical criticism, etc. <br />
<br />
But I must caution you, we had a very good relationship to begin with (married more than 25 years). I don't think everyone has such a good outcome. Unfortunately, it's way too late to change course in life, with married frum children and all. Your mileage may vary and good luck. <br />
November 13, 2010 6:42 PM <br />
<br />
Anonymous said... <br />
"el panav ashalem lo." <br />
<br />
Agnostics, atheists, rejoice. You'll have your day in court. Good luck. <br />
<br />
How odd of God to choose the Jews. <br />
<br />
Those who aren't ffb have incentive to return to the womb, their milieu. For those whose beliefs are based upon group think, mindless frum people, da'as toireh etc. all should know better. To reject belief based upon biblical criticism is shoddy spirituality. We are more than the sum of our parts. <br />
<br />
If you leave the community, nobody will be shocked. But, offering encouragement to others to follow your example is not righteousness, reb. <br />
November 16, 2010 4:35 PM <br />
<br />
Skeptitcher Rebbe said... <br />
Anon,<br />
<br />
Your comment is rather confusing. I don't know why you think you know me well enough to say that no one will be shocked if I left the community. I have a feeling that many people would be shocked. Also I have no intention of leaving at this stage of my life, and it is possible I never will. Although I notice problems in the community that isn't to say that there aren't similar or additional problems outside the community.<br />
<br />
I don't push people to follow in my footsteps. These are my own personal opinions about my situation and what I experienced. I don't think anyone should follow in my footsteps or anyone elses for that matter, they should decide for themselves what life they wish to live, and if that means being religious then I fully support that. If it means leaving religion then I fully support that as well. Life is confusing and difficult and I am not about to tell others how they should deal with it in their own personal way.<br />
<br />
Also I don't reject belief based on biblical criticism. Biblical criticism seems to make sense given the circumstances but I don't hold it up as evidence against belief in the Torah's divinity/truth. <br />
November 16, 2010 8:50 PM <br />
<br />
Anonymous said... <br />
What say ye then, reb, to what Rashi cites on "im bechukotai telechu: "lo lamad, lo 'asah etc." Does this pattern conform to your own? <br />
December 2, 2010 2:29 PM <br />
<br />
Skeptitcher Rebbe said... <br />
Of those seven things enumerated by Rashi I will tell you that this pattern didn't conform to my own.<br />
<br />
1) [First, a person] does not learn [the Torah]<br />
<br />
I did learn Torah and still do.<br />
<br />
2) then, he [subsequently] does not fulfill [the commandments]<br />
<br />
I did fulfill the commandments, and still do.<br />
<br />
3) he then despises others who do [fulfill them]<br />
<br />
I most definitely don't despise others who fulfill the commandments, many of my best and most trusted friends fulfill the commands, including my wife.<br />
<br />
4) then, he hates the Sages, <br />
<br />
Totally not true.<br />
<br />
5) prevents others from fulfilling [the commandments]<br />
<br />
Again, totally not true and I haven't prevented anyone from fulfilling the commandments.<br />
<br />
6) denies the [authenticity of the] commandments <br />
<br />
This is true.<br />
<br />
7) and [finally] denies the very omnipotence of God.<br />
<br />
This is also true.<br />
<br />
This is not the path I have taken to denying the authenticity of the Torah and of Yiddishkeit.<br />
<br />
The path I took was through continual study and reasoning to decide that I no longer believed in the precepts in the Torah and Yiddishkeit. I never hated Frum Jews, still don't, and I never wish to stop Frum Jews from doing mitzvahs, if anything I help promote it in my daily life. I still keep the mitzvahs and I still learn Torah daily.<br />
<br />
I hope that answers your question. <br />
December 2, 2010 3:52 PMG*3http://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.com2tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6333352338723538012.post-28577397565334319742011-10-09T14:33:00.000-07:002011-10-09T14:33:11.782-07:00Series: "Uberchumradoxius" its Development and Causes Thereof<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;">Originally posted on Divrei Acher</span></div><h2 style="margin: auto 0in;">Tuesday, April 21, 2009</h2><div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;"><a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/04/series-uberchumradoxius-its-development.html">Link</a></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><br />
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</div><h3 style="margin: 10pt 0in 0pt;"><a href="" name="8693829640853599588"></a> </h3><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";">Last year (7,654 A.D.) I was at a conference and I became aware of a new area of research. The topic being researched is the phenomenon of a certain subspecies called <i>Uberchumradoxius</i>* which is now extinct, but has been of great interest lately in the scientific community. Two opposing camps with diametrically opposed views as to the development of <i>Uberchumradoxius </i>have risen in the scientific community.<br />
One camp hypothesizes that the subspecies evolved naturally amongst the general population. They theorize that the earliest forms of <i>Uberchumradoxius </i>had just slight deviations from regular specimen. With time these were accentuated by natural selection and continued mutations, which were favored due to the peculiar environment that was the habitat of <i>Uberchumradoxius</i>.<br />
The opposing camp ridicules this theory, pointing out the anti-natural nature of the subspecies, its hazardous tendencies towards itself and its habitat, behaviors that would absolutely preclude the selection of this subspecies even in very controlled environments. If natural selection was running its course, this latter camp claims, the first even slightly deviant specimen with tendencies resembling anything similar to <i>Uberchumradoxius </i>would probably not have survived into adulthood to procreate, and any offspring thereof would have certainly died in infancy. So destructive to its own survival are the behaviors of <i>Uberchumradoxius</i>. This is an accepted fact, and no one in the scientific community doubts the long-term repercussions to itself that the behavior of <i>Uberchumradoxius</i> ultimately poses.<br />
The former camp maintains though, that in the short-term there were benefits to being a <i>Uberchumradoxius </i>as opposed to a normal specimen, given the peculiar environment of <i>Uberchumradoxius</i>. The latter camp disagrees with this vehemently, stating unequivocally that no benefits favored by natural selection can be found in the behaviors of <i>Uberchumradoxius</i>. So how does this camp account for the prolonged existence of <i>Uberchumradoxius</i>? They claim that the only possible cause could be something called "Intelligent Design". What they mean by this peculiar term is that some force with intelligence, favored the development of <i>Uberchumradoxius</i>. This force was able to steer <i>Uberchumradoxius </i>through the otherwise swift end it would have met at the hands of natural selection. The subspecies was able to produce viable offspring with even more accentuated traits that are the hallmark of <i>Uberchumradoxius</i>. As of yet, no satisfactory explanation has been given as to the nature and motives of this force. Speculations range from extraterrestrial experiments, to others who claim some type of long-term benefit for the general species, which learned to avoid tendencies exhibited by <i>Uberchumradoxius</i> because of its relatively quick demise. This camp admits that none of their speculations are sane, but they claim being forced into them by the absolute improbability of natural selection favoring <i>Uberchumradoxius</i> under any circumstances.<br />
<br />
That's a synopsis of the scholarship on the topic to date.<br />
<br />
Upcoming in the series:<br />
Arguments pro and con presented by both sides, and snippets of conversation I overheard between proponents of the differing views at the conference.<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
*Origin: German <i>Uber - </i>above, more<i>; Chumra</i> is an obscure word from the now dead Aramaic, here a connotation of extreme; Latin <i>doxius </i>- a derivation from <i>dox </i>- belief, opinion </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 16.8pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span class="post-author"><span style="color: #999999; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif"; font-size: 9.5pt; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;">Posted by </span></span><span class="fn"><span style="color: #999999; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif"; font-size: 9.5pt; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;">Acher</span></span><span class="post-author"><span style="color: #999999; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif"; font-size: 9.5pt; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"> </span></span><span class="post-timestamp"><span style="color: #999999; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif"; font-size: 9.5pt; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;">at </span></span><a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/04/series-uberchumradoxius-its-development.html" title="permanent link"><span style="font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif"; font-size: 9.5pt; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;">2:47 PM</span></a><span class="post-timestamp"><span style="color: #999999; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif"; font-size: 9.5pt; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"> </span></span><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=8693829640853599588&from=pencil" title=""Edit Post" "><span style="color: #5588aa; display: none; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif"; font-size: 9.5pt; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; mso-hide: all; mso-no-proof: yes; text-decoration: none; text-transform: uppercase; text-underline: none;"><shapetype coordsize="21600,21600" filled="f" id="_x0000_t75" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" stroked="f"><stroke joinstyle="miter"></stroke><formulas><f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"></f><f eqn="sum @0 1 0"></f><f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"></f><f eqn="prod @2 1 2"></f><f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"></f><f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"></f><f eqn="sum @0 0 1"></f><f eqn="prod @6 1 2"></f><f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"></f><f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"></f><f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"></f><f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"></f></formulas><path gradientshapeok="t" o:connecttype="rect" o:extrusionok="f"></path><lock aspectratio="t" v:ext="edit"></lock></shapetype><shape alt="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/icon18_edit_allbkg.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=8693829640853599588&from=pencil" id="Picture_x0020_1" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1036" style="height: 13.5pt; 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letter-spacing: 2.4pt; text-transform: uppercase;">6 comments: </span></b><b><span style="color: #999999; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; font-size: 12pt; letter-spacing: 2.4pt; text-transform: uppercase;"></span></b></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="" name="c282433461918156073"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12258839183918588228"><span style="color: #5588aa; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; mso-no-proof: yes; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;"><shape alt="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgGDM2UT4YUlLDXtgV0BAJNcomp6y-yQgh3IBFQPoyX2ITNRjX4XFuBum-zJHlgVXib_HMhKS9Ao-bdnRwdialTaahG6p8xz29y-eRLehuS_VAyBreC-hx-k9730DnToL9XRQVSDS9T5HZP/s45/A+Pusheter+Yid" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12258839183918588228" id="Picture_x0020_2" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1035" style="height: 26.25pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 26.25pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="A%2BPusheter%2BYid" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image002.jpg"></imagedata></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12258839183918588228"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"><span style="color: blue;">A Pusheter Yid</span></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"> said... </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 0in 0in 9pt 0.5in;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";">You are ahead of the curve here. </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 16.8pt; margin: 0in 0in 24pt 0.5in;"><a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/04/series-uberchumradoxius-its-development.html?showComment=1240354860000#c282433461918156073" title="comment permalink"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><span style="color: blue;">April 21, 2009 7:01 PM </span></span></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=282433461918156073" title=""Delete Comment" "><span style="color: #5588aa; display: none; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; mso-hide: all; mso-no-proof: yes; text-decoration: none; text-transform: uppercase; text-underline: none;"><shape alt="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=282433461918156073" id="Picture_x0020_3" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1034" style="height: 9.75pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 9.75pt;" title=""Delete Comment"" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: blue;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="icon_delete13" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="" name="c271208835860128139"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12861222390091673835"><span style="color: #5588aa; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; mso-no-proof: yes; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;"><shape alt="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEimdHPAO40DB7wOgiaekLGxb-RbdB8z354b-HYv18yvwHXChc5GsUMjppw2cmEO3rmJt961ZYRoturOpm4mwG21RziH1SPncVD32GRdxlJG1v1yOPpvB6CjPXgxh4_KmTZfqfjYgegG25Y/s45/mask.jpg" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12861222390091673835" id="Picture_x0020_4" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1033" style="height: 26.25pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 26.25pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: blue;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="mask" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image005.jpg"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12861222390091673835"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"><span style="color: blue;">Baal Habos</span></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"> said... </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 0in 0in 9pt 0.5in;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";">I have often wondered about this. How on earth have the Chareidim seemingly gained ascendance? <br />
<br />
Possible answers<br />
A) They're parasitic, dependent on the largesse of the non chareidim. <br />
B) Natural selection takes some time. It's Malthus theory (limited resources) that triggered Darwin's thought processes. The S&^T is just beginning to hit the fan in the Chareidi world and we'll see some real change when the financial realities start forcing change in the Chareidi way of life. </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 16.8pt; margin: 0in 0in 24pt 0.5in;"><a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/04/series-uberchumradoxius-its-development.html?showComment=1240355160000#c271208835860128139" title="comment permalink"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><span style="color: blue;">April 21, 2009 7:06 PM </span></span></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=271208835860128139" title=""Delete Comment" "><span style="color: #5588aa; display: none; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; mso-hide: all; mso-no-proof: yes; text-decoration: none; text-transform: uppercase; text-underline: none;"><shape alt="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=271208835860128139" id="Picture_x0020_5" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1032" style="height: 9.75pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 9.75pt;" title=""Delete Comment"" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: blue;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="icon_delete13" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="" name="c2387091054815192473"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12944580668112674433"><span style="color: #5588aa; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; mso-no-proof: yes; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;"><shape alt="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhm9cBfVTitjyVsJifhRPgvgWtkDpynHAqDQj5u9tMs6j5ExDgYadP0I2HyGSF-NW3s4soY4X3LBwMof_NERJmX0wbEIpJ4I-pE7D9Q7gt9pUWRz1Qm_FjXiSXVmfTGPH1G_5SPGQ-UgQ/s45/democritus_1628_Brugghen.jpg" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12944580668112674433" id="Picture_x0020_6" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1031" style="height: 26.25pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 26.25pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: blue;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="democritus_1628_Brugghen" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image007.jpg"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12944580668112674433"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"><span style="color: blue;">Acher</span></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"> said... </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 0in 0in 9pt 0.5in;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";">Ah BHB, so you're biased against the "Intelligent Design" proponents. You haven't even heard their arguments as to the utter impossibility of the natural evolvement of <i>Uberchumradoxius</i>. <br />
<br />
But on a serious note you're right on both accounts. I think that they are parasitic, but the general community can only support sparse individuals of this kind, not a whole community. So it'll take its time like you say. </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 16.8pt; margin: 0in 0in 24pt 0.5in;"><a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/04/series-uberchumradoxius-its-development.html?showComment=1240362600000#c2387091054815192473" title="comment permalink"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><span style="color: blue;">April 21, 2009 9:10 PM </span></span></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=2387091054815192473" title=""Delete Comment" "><span style="color: #5588aa; display: none; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; mso-hide: all; mso-no-proof: yes; text-decoration: none; text-transform: uppercase; text-underline: none;"><shape alt="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=2387091054815192473" id="Picture_x0020_7" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1030" style="height: 9.75pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 9.75pt;" title=""Delete Comment"" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: blue;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="icon_delete13" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="" name="c4733816997017831116"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12861222390091673835"><span style="color: #5588aa; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; mso-no-proof: yes; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;"><shape alt="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEimdHPAO40DB7wOgiaekLGxb-RbdB8z354b-HYv18yvwHXChc5GsUMjppw2cmEO3rmJt961ZYRoturOpm4mwG21RziH1SPncVD32GRdxlJG1v1yOPpvB6CjPXgxh4_KmTZfqfjYgegG25Y/s45/mask.jpg" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12861222390091673835" id="Picture_x0020_8" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1029" style="height: 26.25pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 26.25pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: blue;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="mask" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image005.jpg"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12861222390091673835"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"><span style="color: blue;">Baal Habos</span></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"> said... </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 0in 0in 9pt 0.5in;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";">If it's ID, then obviously ID favors the Reform over Chareidim. ID also seems to favor the CHristians and the Muslims. </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 16.8pt; margin: 0in 0in 24pt 0.5in;"><a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/04/series-uberchumradoxius-its-development.html?showComment=1240366740000#c4733816997017831116" title="comment permalink"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><span style="color: blue;">April 21, 2009 10:19 PM </span></span></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=4733816997017831116" title=""Delete Comment" "><span style="color: #5588aa; display: none; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; mso-hide: all; mso-no-proof: yes; text-decoration: none; text-transform: uppercase; text-underline: none;"><shape alt="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=4733816997017831116" id="Picture_x0020_9" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1028" style="height: 9.75pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 9.75pt;" title=""Delete Comment"" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: blue;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="icon_delete13" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="" name="c8746459547276244694"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/00637936588223855248"><span style="color: #5588aa; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; mso-no-proof: yes; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;"><shape alt="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/00637936588223855248" id="Picture_x0020_10" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1027" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: blue;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="b16-rounded" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image009.gif"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/00637936588223855248"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"><span style="color: blue;">Joshua</span></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"> said... </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 0in 0in 9pt 0.5in;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";">Actually, the financial collapse seems to have hit the chareidi community badly. Some (especially in New York) were getting financing from less frum relatives who can no longer afford to support their relatives as much. The long-term effects of the current economic crisis may have substantial impacts on the chareidi community. </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 16.8pt; margin: 0in 0in 24pt 0.5in;"><a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/04/series-uberchumradoxius-its-development.html?showComment=1241137440000#c8746459547276244694" title="comment permalink"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><span style="color: blue;">April 30, 2009 8:24 PM </span></span></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=8746459547276244694" title=""Delete Comment" "><span style="color: #5588aa; display: none; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; mso-hide: all; mso-no-proof: yes; text-decoration: none; text-transform: uppercase; text-underline: none;"><shape alt="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=8746459547276244694" id="Picture_x0020_11" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1026" style="height: 9.75pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 9.75pt;" title=""Delete Comment"" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: blue;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="icon_delete13" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="" name="c2882634349906857819"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12944580668112674433"><span style="color: #5588aa; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; mso-no-proof: yes; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;"><shape alt="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhm9cBfVTitjyVsJifhRPgvgWtkDpynHAqDQj5u9tMs6j5ExDgYadP0I2HyGSF-NW3s4soY4X3LBwMof_NERJmX0wbEIpJ4I-pE7D9Q7gt9pUWRz1Qm_FjXiSXVmfTGPH1G_5SPGQ-UgQ/s45/democritus_1628_Brugghen.jpg" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12944580668112674433" id="Picture_x0020_12" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1025" style="height: 26.25pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 26.25pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: blue;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="democritus_1628_Brugghen" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image007.jpg"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12944580668112674433"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"><span style="color: blue;">Acher</span></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"> said... </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 0in 0in 9pt 0.5in;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";">True, I'm aware of that. This post is mostly for a little Litzonus than anything else. The issue is quite obvious. I hope to continue on these series soon. </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 16.8pt; margin: 0in 0in 24pt 0.5in;"><a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/04/series-uberchumradoxius-its-development.html?showComment=1241142000000#c2882634349906857819" title="comment permalink"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><span style="color: blue;">April 30, 2009 9:40 PM </span></span></a></div>G*3http://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6333352338723538012.post-92188759252158889712011-10-09T14:31:00.000-07:002011-10-09T14:31:41.853-07:00Honor Thy Father & Mother<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;">Originally posted on Baal Habos</span></div><h2 style="line-height: 24pt; margin: 0in 21pt 0pt 32.25pt;"><span style="color: #881100; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt; letter-spacing: 2.4pt; text-transform: uppercase;">16 March 2009</span></h2><div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;"><a href="http://baalhabos.blogspot.com/2009_03_01_archive.html">Link</a></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 12pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif";">I can't tell you how many times I've participated in a conversation such as the following:</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #666666; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif";">BHB: So what does your son/son-in-law do?<br />
Other: He's a Rebbe/fund raiser/still<br />
learning/Tutoring/Learning/Shteiging.<br />
BHB: Are you happy with that?<br />
Other: Not really/Not at all. I really wanted him to be a lawyer/accountant/doctor but this is what he wants to do.</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif";"><br />
<br />
Notice the Bnei Torah have no compunction in ignoring their parents wishes. <br />
<br />
Now of course, I understand. Even from a secular perspective everyone can and should do what he or she pleases and a person shouldn't live their lives to fill their parents dreams or desires. And of course from a religious perspective there are a host of other reasons, such as Divrei Harav V'divrei Hatalmud, etc.<br />
<br />
But what I've noticed is the Bnei Torah <em><span style="font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi;">don't seem to even care that they're letting their parent's down.</span></em><br />
<br />
<br />
But note the irony in this. I can't tell you how many times I've heard from Skeptics or about Skeptics, how difficult it is for them to break the news to their parents that they no longer believe. I don't recall the details clearly, but IIRC I've heard about one skeptic who plans on marrying a shiksa but intends to tell the girl he has no parents, just so that he won't bring her to his parents and they won't know he's marring outside the faith. Now, I happen to think that's a bit crazy. OK, even alot crazy. But Wow. THAT's what I call respect for and not desiring to hurt your parents. Even though it might be inevitable, almost every single skeptic who comes out of the closet has parental feelings as one of his primary concerns.<br />
<br />
So who has real Kibud Av V'em? The Bnei Torah or the Skeptics?<br />
<br />
And of course, that's just another manifestation of the problem with the Torah and even Torah Morality. It's really only lip-service to morality.<br />
<br />
Because, even in morality issues, the Torah doesn't mean what it says. It means what the Rabbis want it to mean. </span></div><div style="background: #eeeeee; border-bottom: #eeeeee 1pt solid; border-left: #bbbbbb 1pt dotted; border-right: #bbbbbb 1pt dotted; border-top: #bbbbbb 1pt dotted; mso-border-alt: dotted #BBBBBB .75pt; mso-border-bottom-alt: solid #EEEEEE .75pt; mso-element: para-border-div; padding-bottom: 2pt; padding-left: 22pt; padding-right: 11pt; padding-top: 2pt;"><div align="left" class="post-footer1" style="background: #eeeeee; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif";"><span style="color: #666666;">posted by Baal Habos @ </span></span><a href="http://baalhabos.blogspot.com/2009/03/honor-thy-father-mother.html" title="permanent link"><span style="font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-theme-font: major-fareast;"><span style="color: blue;">3/16/2009</span></span></a><span style="font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif";"><span style="color: #666666;"> </span></span></div></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt; vertical-align: middle;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif"; mso-hansi-font-family: Symbol;">=========================================================================</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt; vertical-align: middle;"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif"; mso-hide: all;"> –</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shapetype coordsize="21600,21600" filled="f" id="_x0000_t75" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" stroked="f"><stroke joinstyle="miter"></stroke><formulas><f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"></f><f eqn="sum @0 1 0"></f><f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"></f><f eqn="prod @2 1 2"></f><f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"></f><f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"></f><f eqn="sum @0 0 1"></f><f eqn="prod @6 1 2"></f><f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"></f><f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"></f><f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"></f><f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"></f></formulas><path gradientshapeok="t" o:connecttype="rect" o:extrusionok="f"></path><lock aspectratio="t" v:ext="edit"></lock></shapetype><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_2" o:spid="_x0000_i1155" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><span class="js-singlecommentname2"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><strong><u>Pen Tivokeish</u></strong></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_3" o:spid="_x0000_i1154" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">What do Chazal say on <i>Ish omo ve'oviv tirohu, ve'es shabsosai tishmoriu? </i> </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1"> </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">We are taught the attitude you mention in school very early on in our lives.</span> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt;">Monday, March 16, 2009, 9:20:11 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;">– </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentflagable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentlikeable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Like</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentreplyable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Reply</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentdeletable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommenteditable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentmoderatable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_5" o:spid="_x0000_i1153" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><span class="js-singlecommentname2"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><strong><u>Halo</u></strong></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_6" o:spid="_x0000_i1152" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">there's a difference between disappointing your parents and completely devastating them to the point where they might never want to have anything to do with you again. the former is a little easier than the latter.</span> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt;">Monday, March 16, 2009, 9:30:47 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;">– </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentflagable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentlikeable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Like</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentreplyable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Reply</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentdeletable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommenteditable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentmoderatable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_8" o:spid="_x0000_i1151" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><span class="js-singlecommentname2"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><strong><u>frumheretic</u></strong></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_9" o:spid="_x0000_i1150" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1"><i>I've heard about one skeptic who plans on marrying a shiksa</i> </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1"> </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">Giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming that you are quoting someone when you use the denigrating term "shiksa"!</span> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt;">Monday, March 16, 2009, 9:53:01 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;">– </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentflagable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentlikeable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Like</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentreplyable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Reply</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentdeletable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommenteditable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentmoderatable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_11" o:spid="_x0000_i1149" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><span class="js-singlecommentname2"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><strong><u>Baal Habos</u></strong></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_12" o:spid="_x0000_i1148" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">Halo, you're absolutely right. </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">Frum, what? Since when is Shikseh a denigrating term?! It's nowhere near like what's going Jackie Mason now.</span> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt;">Monday, March 16, 2009, 10:06:49 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;">– </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentflagable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentlikeable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Like</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentreplyable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Reply</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentdeletable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommenteditable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentmoderatable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_14" o:spid="_x0000_i1147" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><span class="js-singlecommentname2"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><strong><u>Baal Habos</u></strong></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_15" o:spid="_x0000_i1146" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">>We are taught the attitude you mention in school very early on in our lives. </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1"> </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">Yep, I agree what I said is no real chiddush on the religious side.</span> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt;">Monday, March 16, 2009, 10:22:34 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;">– </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentflagable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentlikeable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Like</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentreplyable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Reply</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentdeletable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommenteditable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentmoderatable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_17" o:spid="_x0000_i1145" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><span class="js-singlecommentname2"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><strong><u>offthederech</u></strong></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_18" o:spid="_x0000_i1144" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">Greta post. I like to call it "frum arrogance." There's just no negotiating with extremists.</span> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt;">Monday, March 16, 2009, 11:13:45 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;">– </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentflagable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentlikeable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Like</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentreplyable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Reply</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentdeletable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommenteditable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentmoderatable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_20" o:spid="_x0000_i1143" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><span class="js-singlecommentname2"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><strong><u>Chasid Kofer</u></strong></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_21" o:spid="_x0000_i1142" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">BHB, </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1"> </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">I would have to agree with Halo on this one. It's because of the attitude pt mentioned, that OJ parent have learned to accept it. But sadly it doesn't make it any easier later in life when their kids struggle to make a living.</span> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt;">Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 12:11:15 AM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;">– </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentflagable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentlikeable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Like</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentreplyable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Reply</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentdeletable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommenteditable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentmoderatable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_23" o:spid="_x0000_i1141" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><span class="js-singlecommentname2"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><strong><u>Mark</u></strong></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_24" o:spid="_x0000_i1140" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">BHB, </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1"> </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">Did you take a look in Kugel's book for "Es La'Asos L'Hashem"?</span> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt;">Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 12:31:39 AM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;">– </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentflagable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentlikeable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Like</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentreplyable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Reply</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentdeletable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommenteditable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentmoderatable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_26" o:spid="_x0000_i1139" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><span class="js-singlecommentname2"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><strong><u>The Hedyot</u></strong></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_27" o:spid="_x0000_i1138" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">I'm not sure if you're thinking of someone else, but I might have told you about the guy who wasn't going to tell his parents, but if it was me, you're mixing it up a bit. He wasn't actually proposing that because he was in a relationship with someone and was faced with the situation. He simply said that if he was faced with that kind of situation, that's what he would consider doing. Doesn't actually change your point, but just thought I'd clarify, in case it was the story I had told you which you were referring to.</span> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt;">Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 2:04:09 AM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;">– </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentflagable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentlikeable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Like</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentreplyable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Reply</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentdeletable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommenteditable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentmoderatable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_29" o:spid="_x0000_i1137" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><span class="js-singlecommentname2"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><strong><u>Baal Habos</u></strong></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_30" o:spid="_x0000_i1136" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">Mark, I read his book, but I don't recall the reference. </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1"> </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">Hedyot, yes, it was you that I heard the story from, and as I said in the post, the details were a bit hazy.</span> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt;">Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 7:29:36 AM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;">– </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentflagable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentlikeable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Like</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentreplyable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Reply</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentdeletable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommenteditable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentmoderatable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_32" o:spid="_x0000_i1135" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><span class="js-singlecommentname2"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><strong><u>bankman</u></strong></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_33" o:spid="_x0000_i1134" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">lets see - your kids spend 10 hours a day in a day school - and whether its mixed or not, their limudaie kodesh teachers are mostly chareidi - hammering this attitude of talmud torah k'neged kulam for 10 years! They come home and eat dinner and hang out a bit, go to shul with their parents on shabbos - and then get sent off to israel - again with the charedi teachers hammering this attitude into them - and we are surprised by their decisions when they are older?</span> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt;">Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 8:37:29 AM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;">– </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentflagable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentlikeable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Like</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentreplyable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Reply</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentdeletable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommenteditable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentmoderatable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_35" o:spid="_x0000_i1133" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><span class="js-singlecommentname2"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><strong><u>Baal Habos</u></strong></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_36" o:spid="_x0000_i1132" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">>and we are surprised by their decisions when they are older? </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1"> </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">Not at all. I understand the decision. It's the emotion behind the decision, or lack of it as to how the parents will care, that I'm referring to. The lack of angst, shall we say, on the part of Yeshiva boys.</span> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt;">Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 8:41:30 AM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;">– </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentflagable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentlikeable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Like</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentreplyable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Reply</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentdeletable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommenteditable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentmoderatable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_38" o:spid="_x0000_i1131" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><span class="js-singlecommentname2"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><strong><u>G*3</u></strong></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_39" o:spid="_x0000_i1130" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">There's a big difference between the yeshiva guy and the skeptic. The parents of the yeshiva guy, while they might prefer that he have a profession, usually see both a career and learning as valid options. They may prefer one over the other, (perhaps strongly), but both are valid ways of life. The skeptic, on the other hand, is presenting his parents with a way of life that they see as invalid and that repudates everything they have taught their child. The second is clearly much worse. </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1"> </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">There is also "talmud torah keneged kulam" which is usually interpreted as learning is the point of existance, everything else is a waste of time (bittul torah), is done so that others may learn, or for nebachs who can't learn. </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1"> </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">And finally, Kibad av was Eisav's middah, so it can't really be worth much, right?</span> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt;">Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 9:24:21 AM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;">– </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentflagable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentlikeable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Like</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentreplyable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Reply</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentdeletable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommenteditable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentmoderatable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_41" o:spid="_x0000_i1129" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><span class="js-singlecommentname2"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><strong><u>Baal Habos</u></strong></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_42" o:spid="_x0000_i1128" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">>And finally, Kibad av was Eisav's middah, so it can't really be worth much, right? </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1"> </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">LOL. Gut Gezokt. There's an Upshlug for everything.</span> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt;">Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 9:49:23 AM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;">– </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentflagable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentlikeable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Like</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentreplyable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Reply</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentdeletable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommenteditable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentmoderatable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_44" o:spid="_x0000_i1127" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><span class="js-singlecommentname2"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><strong><u>Pen Tivokeish</u></strong></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_45" o:spid="_x0000_i1126" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">Sorry for side tracking a little, but the schmooze in all honesty should go like this: </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1"> </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">BHB: So what does your son/son-in-law do? </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">Other: He's a Rebbe/fund raiser/still </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">learning/Tutoring/Learning/Shteiging. </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">BHB: Are you happy with that? </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">Other: Not really/Not at all. I really wanted him to be a lawyer/accountant/doctor but I didn't give him the education he would have needed for that, and he is B"H doing the same to his children, so he cannot have too much ta'anes on me.</span> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_92" o:spid="_x0000_i1125" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Baal Habos</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_93" o:spid="_x0000_i1124" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">>... but I didn't give him the education he would have needed for that, and he is B"H doing the same to his children, so he cannot have too much ta'anes on me. </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Not in my Baalebattaish circles. Most kids have an adequate education to go to Grad school. The kids choose to sit and learn instead of work. On the contrary, they can have no taanos to us, but their own children can certainly have Taanos. My kids are CHOOSING to step back into the ghetto, leaving the grandchildren without the choice and tools their parents were graced with.</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 11:22:08 AM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_95" o:spid="_x0000_i1123" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Pen Tivokeish</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_96" o:spid="_x0000_i1122" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">So I guess, I am writing for your einklach.</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 11:34:07 AM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_98" o:spid="_x0000_i1121" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Mark</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_99" o:spid="_x0000_i1120" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">BHB, </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">He doesn't mention it, he just quotes the Posuk and Gemarah on it on a separate page before beginning the book. If you have it take a look, otherwise forget it, it's not that important.</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 12:31:50 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_101" o:spid="_x0000_i1119" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Mark</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_102" o:spid="_x0000_i1118" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">>My kids are CHOOSING to step back into the ghetto, leaving the grandchildren without the choice and tools their parents were graced with. </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">I don't know how you take that. One thing is all the rest of it, but self destruction is hard to witness when happening to one's family.</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 12:33:32 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_104" o:spid="_x0000_i1117" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Mark</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_105" o:spid="_x0000_i1116" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">And on the general point of your post, I have to agree with a previous commenter that there is a difference between disappointing one's parents, and completely devastating them. That said, you still have a point. Personally, I tried as I hard as I could to keep my new "Meshugas" away from my father, and he found out after a while, when confronting me directly and I had no choice but to spill the beans. And even then, I could have wiggled out of it had I wanted and told him what he wanted to hear, but I didn't because I couldn't lie to him. In short there was no great Tzidkus going on here, but my primary concern was not letting my father down. So you're correct there.</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 12:40:13 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_107" o:spid="_x0000_i1115" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Baal Habos</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_108" o:spid="_x0000_i1114" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Mark, I don;t have that Sefer anymore. :) </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">>I don't know how you take that. One thing is all the rest of it, but self destruction is hard to witness when happening to one's family. </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Tsuros Rabim - Chatzi Nechama. </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">> And on the general point of your post, I have to agree with a previous commenter that there is a difference between disappointing one's parents, and completely devastating them. </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Sure, I agree with him too! </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">>That said, you still have a point. </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">I agree with that too!</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 1:00:52 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_110" o:spid="_x0000_i1113" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Mark</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_111" o:spid="_x0000_i1112" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Have you been following XGHs place lately. He has gone completely bonkers, especially with his latest post (the first few paragraphs). I intend to write something there, but I don't have the Koach to get into a punching match with him, though I will try to come up with one coherent comment and let the rest of you judge.</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 1:09:58 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_113" o:spid="_x0000_i1111" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Holy Hyrax</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_114" o:spid="_x0000_i1110" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Im not sure, but since when does Kibud av v'em mean finding a career that they want? What if instead of learning and being a rabbi, this individual went on to become a mechanic or botonist, would you still claim he is being disrespectful of his parents? Me thinks you are only picking here because he went on to being a rabbi and not a "normal" job.</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 1:18:46 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_116" o:spid="_x0000_i1109" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Baal Habos</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_117" o:spid="_x0000_i1108" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">MArk, I haven;t been following GH much, too involved in OP philosphy and I have a hard time coming to grips with that. </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Holy, can't you guys read? As I've said a few times, it's the ATTITUDE that I object too, not the actual career difference. No one should pick a career to satisfy their parents, and I thought I spelled that out.</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 1:24:08 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_119" o:spid="_x0000_i1107" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Holy Hyrax</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_120" o:spid="_x0000_i1106" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">What attitude?</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 1:27:09 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_122" o:spid="_x0000_i1105" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Baal Habos</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_123" o:spid="_x0000_i1104" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">>What attitude? </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">As I said in the post </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">"But what I've noticed is the Bnei Torah don't seem to even care that they're letting their parent's down."</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 1:54:15 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_125" o:spid="_x0000_i1103" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Baal Habos</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_126" o:spid="_x0000_i1102" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">HH, It's possible you won't relate because you don't know what Yeshivish OJ culture is like.</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 1:58:07 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_128" o:spid="_x0000_i1101" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Halo</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_129" o:spid="_x0000_i1100" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">some charedi people even look down at their parents because they think their parents lack yiras shamayim. </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Off topic - I still love XGH's blog after all these years. He brings humor and passion to what ever side he's on (unless he's depressed)</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 2:03:26 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_131" o:spid="_x0000_i1099" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Baal Habos</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_132" o:spid="_x0000_i1098" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">> some charedi people even look down at their parents because they think their parents lack yiras shamayim. </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Oy vey. I never really thought of it that way, but it's probably true. </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">>Off topic - I still love XGH's blog after all these years. He brings humor and passion to what ever side he's on (unless he's depressed) </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">He's still the King. I just can't relate to a lot of that "intelleOrthopraxis". Just come out and say it "I'm stuck".</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 2:14:36 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_134" o:spid="_x0000_i1097" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Halo</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_135" o:spid="_x0000_i1096" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">>Just come out and say it "I'm stuck". </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">I think it's more complicated than that. I think he really feels value in it. He doesn't have as negative attitude as you do. That may have to do with the fact that he's LWMO</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_182" o:spid="_x0000_i1095" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Baal Habos</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_183" o:spid="_x0000_i1094" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">> think he really feels value in it. </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">I do too. </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">>He doesn't have as negative attitude as you do. </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">That is very true </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">> That may have to do with the fact that he's LWMO </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Probably</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 2:26:54 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_185" o:spid="_x0000_i1093" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Halo</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_186" o:spid="_x0000_i1092" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">> think he really feels value in it. </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">>I do too. </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">you think frumkeit has value over a secular lifestyle? If so, why would you say you're stuck?</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 2:35:37 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_188" o:spid="_x0000_i1091" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Holy Hyrax</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_189" o:spid="_x0000_i1090" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Well, I would like to know if its true they "don't care" about disappointing their parents. The problem here is the parents that put them in a spot that they can actually worry about making an honest career decision without the parents over their necks.</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 2:37:13 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_191" o:spid="_x0000_i1089" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Baal Habos</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_192" o:spid="_x0000_i1088" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">>you think frumkeit has value over a secular lifestyle? If so, why would you say you're stuck? </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">I'm not saying in totality it has greater value than the secular system. But it certainly has value. And I think if XGH thinks it does have greater value, it's because he's stuck. It's another form of Cognitive Dissonance.</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 2:52:17 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_194" o:spid="_x0000_i1087" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Baal Habos</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_195" o:spid="_x0000_i1086" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">>The problem here is the parents that put them in a spot that they can actually worry about making an honest career decision without the parents over their necks. </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Can you rephrase? Or did you too have a yeshiva education? ;)</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 2:53:35 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_197" o:spid="_x0000_i1085" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">JS</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_198" o:spid="_x0000_i1084" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">"Bnei Torah don't seem to care that they're letting their parents down" </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Some do, some don't. Do you think they're relatively less considerate of their parents' feelings than teens who go OTD? Or non-Jews? or reform teens? I'm all for well-aimed generalizations but this one's pretty shaky. I'll grant that there's that instilled attitude that they're obeying a Higher Power, and so their poor unenlightened parents' feelings are irrelevant. But not always---far more often, the parents themselves give mixed signals. Many of these parents are quite wimpy &/or passive/aggressive--they kvetch to others that they're unhappy w/their kids' choices, but did they ever clearly, unequivocally voice their feelings to the child in question? Better yet, did they declare that they have no intention of supporting that lifestyle? Almost never. Few frum parents have the guts to go against the prevailing winds within frum society on even the most trivial matters; no one wants to be less frum than the "Cohens".</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 3:11:21 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_200" o:spid="_x0000_i1083" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">JS</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_201" o:spid="_x0000_i1082" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">...And even when parents do whine about it, they typically say, "If I were a millionaire and could afford to support all my kids in learning for life, I'd love to, but unfortunately I'm not able..." </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">What a cop-out! Pure PC drivel. Little Moishy Kollelboy is statistically very unlikely to be that one-in-a-thousand someone who actually learns 95% of their 10 hours worth of siddorim (or even 75%)---so Why? WHY would a parent "love" for their kid to live what is effectively a very undemanding, unstructured, unproductive (not to say lazy) existence, even if leavened with a few hours of real learning?! It's mindless, but there you go. For every kids these days sitting and learning, there's at least one parent whining ineffectually about expenses--(the trip to Israel! the $60G wedding! new YomTov outfits for the grandkids! the sterling esrog-box for a bar mitzvah gift!)---while telling everyone they're kid's learning in this or that yeshiva, as if that were in itself a sign of tremendous intellectual accomplishment.</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 3:28:55 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_203" o:spid="_x0000_i1081" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Baal Habos</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_204" o:spid="_x0000_i1080" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">JS, Just as I'm not talking about teens who are becoming Rebbeim, I'm not talking about OTD teens who are dropping out of High School. I'm talking about Skeptic young adults. As a rule, they seem to be very considerate of their parents' feelings, assuming they had a good relationship with them all along. And I think you'd be surprized at how many parents are quite vocal with their childrens' choices. Yet, I think you are alluding to a valid point, similiar to that raised by others, namely that sitting in learning is not as painful to parents as apostacy is. When commiserating amongst ourselves, the parents often say, better too frum than not frum enough. So, you're probably right, the attitude does trickle down to the kids. Yet, I don't see any sense of angst on the part of these Bnai Torah. Of course, that's only my personal anectodal experience.</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 3:33:08 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_206" o:spid="_x0000_i1079" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Halo</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_207" o:spid="_x0000_i1078" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">>And I think if XGH thinks it does have greater value, it's because he's stuck. It's another form of Cognitive Dissonance. </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">if you say so, Doctor</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 3:35:23 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_209" o:spid="_x0000_i1077" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Baal Habos</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_210" o:spid="_x0000_i1076" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">>...And even when parents do whine about it, they typically say, "If I were a millionaire and could afford to support all my kids in learning for life, I'd love to, but unfortunately I'm not able..." </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">That is very true, many equivocate that way. I usually come out and say it "I don't believe in it except for yechidim"</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 3:36:18 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_212" o:spid="_x0000_i1075" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Baal Habos</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_213" o:spid="_x0000_i1074" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">> >And I think if XGH thinks it does have greater value, it's because he's stuck. It's another form of Cognitive Dissonance. </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">>if you say so, Doctor </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">I'll ask him. And CC you.</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 3:37:50 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://js-kit.com/avatar/gxpA99f0jKlohF_DgthroT-48x48.png" id="Picture_x0020_223" o:spid="_x0000_i1073" style="height: 36pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 36pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="gxpA99f0jKlohF_DgthroT-48x48" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.png"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_224" o:spid="_x0000_i1072" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Holy Hyrax</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_225" o:spid="_x0000_i1071" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">>Can you rephrase? Or did you too have a yeshiva education? </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Sorry. I am simply saying, why should any parent put their child on spot in that the child, will have to feel uncomfortable when he decides NOT to find job in what their parents expected. The fact that parents have career expectations (at least in this case) is the problem, not with the child being honest about a different field that excites them more.</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_272" o:spid="_x0000_i1070" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><span class="js-singlecommentname2"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><strong><u>Baal Habos</u></strong></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_273" o:spid="_x0000_i1069" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">>Sorry. I am simply saying, why should any parent put their child on spot in that the child, will have to feel uncomfortable when he decides NOT to find job in what their parents expected. The fact that parents have career expectations (at least in this case) is the problem, not with the child being honest about a different field that excites them more. </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1"> </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">Still unclear (re-read it and see if you left something out), but I think I get your drift. </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1"> </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">A) I am simply saying, why should any parent put their child on spot in that the child, will have to feel uncomfortable when he decides to live a normal secular life as lived my hundreds of millions of Americans. The fact that parents have religious expectations (at least in this case) is the problem, not with the child being honest about a different was of life that excites them more </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1"> </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">B) how, as I've said many times, it's not the actual shift. I can ‘t really blame the Bnei Torah for doing as they've been brainwashed. I am ticked off by the lack of caring as to how the parents feel.</span> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt;">Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 5:27:50 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;">– </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentflagable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentlikeable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Like</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentreplyable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Reply</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentdeletable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommenteditable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentmoderatable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_275" o:spid="_x0000_i1068" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><span class="js-singlecommentname2"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><strong><u>Holy Hyrax</u></strong></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_276" o:spid="_x0000_i1067" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">Well, it looks like you understood me fine, except you put in religion, where I was talking about this specific instant of career.</span> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt;">Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 6:33:34 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;">– </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentflagable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentlikeable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Like</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentreplyable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Reply</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentdeletable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommenteditable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentmoderatable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_278" o:spid="_x0000_i1066" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><span class="js-singlecommentname2"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><strong><u>Baal Habos</u></strong></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_279" o:spid="_x0000_i1065" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">>Well, it looks like you understood me fine, except you put in religion, where I was talking about this specific instant of career. </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1"> </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">I'm comparing the letdown of not meeting expectations or desires, makes no difference in what.</span> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt;">Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 7:25:59 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;">– </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentflagable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentlikeable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Like</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentreplyable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Reply</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentdeletable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommenteditable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentmoderatable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_281" o:spid="_x0000_i1064" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><span class="js-singlecommentname2"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><strong><u>Holy Hyrax</u></strong></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_282" o:spid="_x0000_i1063" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">Of course it does. One is leaving your identiy and heritage (from the perspective of the parents), the other is a job.</span> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt;">Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 8:04:37 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;">– </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentflagable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentlikeable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Like</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentreplyable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Reply</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentdeletable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommenteditable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentmoderatable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_284" o:spid="_x0000_i1062" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><span class="js-singlecommentname2"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><strong><u>frumheretic</u></strong></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_285" o:spid="_x0000_i1061" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1"><i>Since when is Shikseh a denigrating term?!</i> </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1"> </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">Seriously? Tell me that you're not aware of its derivation from sheketz, abomination? </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1"> </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">The word is used way too loosely, but even when used in a joking manner it often has a denigrating tone. People make excuses for the word the same way they make excuses for "shvartze", which doesn't have an objectionable origin but is almost always used as a term of disdain.</span> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt;">Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 10:18:36 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;">– </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentflagable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentlikeable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Like</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentreplyable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Reply</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentdeletable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommenteditable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentmoderatable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_287" o:spid="_x0000_i1060" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><span class="js-singlecommentname2"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><strong><u>Baal Habos</u></strong></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_288" o:spid="_x0000_i1059" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">> People make excuses for the word the same way they make excuses for "shvartze", which doesn't have an objectionable origin but is almost always used as a term of disdain. </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1"> </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">Of course, I'm aware of the origin. But there you have it, it's not the derivation that counts, it's the usage. I disdain the 'Shva---" word, but I have no compunction with using the Shikseh word. I erred in my sidebar poll by including the Shikze to mir remark, because people may have chosen that segment just to get the joke across. So discounting that category, the numbers don't differ much, so there's "yesh al me lismoch".</span> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt;">Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 10:49:35 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;">– </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentflagable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentlikeable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Like</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentreplyable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Reply</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentdeletable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommenteditable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentmoderatable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_290" o:spid="_x0000_i1058" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><span class="js-singlecommentname2"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><strong><u>Mark</u></strong></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_291" o:spid="_x0000_i1057" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">>because people may have chosen that segment just to get the joke across. </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1"> </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">Very perceptive. I can see you won't be working for any polling organizations any time soon though.</span> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt;">Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 11:08:46 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;">– </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentflagable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentlikeable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Like</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentreplyable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Reply</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentdeletable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommenteditable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentmoderatable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_299" o:spid="_x0000_i1056" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><span class="js-singlecommentname2"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><strong><u>tesyaa</u></strong></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_300" o:spid="_x0000_i1055" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">I'm a 40 something BT who became frum around the age of 15. To this day I'm sure my parents would prefer I had chosen a non-Orthodox life. They think I made my life too hard (they happen to be right). Of course, they brought me up to be traditional Conservative, so why should they be upset that I crossed the line to MO? </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1"> </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">But my point is that it's my life, and I made my choice. To this day I have angst about "disappointing" my parents. Since I'm confident I made the best choice for me, I'm not sure what's so great about having the angst.</span> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt;">Wednesday, March 18, 2009, 9:20:57 AM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;">– </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentflagable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentlikeable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Like</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentreplyable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Reply</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentdeletable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommenteditable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentmoderatable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_302" o:spid="_x0000_i1054" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><span class="js-singlecommentname2"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><strong><u>kisarita</u></strong></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_303" o:spid="_x0000_i1053" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">sorry, not on your side on this one. kids should not feel guilty by making a lifestyle choice that wasn't quite what their parents wanted. and the parents should get over it. (and no, by making a particular lifestyle choice, we didn't MAKE our parents want to disown us. They are accountable for their own decisions just as well as we are.) that goes for the frum as well as the fry. </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1"> </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">i happen to believe that when OTD's take such great pains to hide things from their parents, it's not out of love, but fear.</span> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt;">Thursday, March 19, 2009, 8:00:55 AM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;">– </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentflagable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentlikeable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Like</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentreplyable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Reply</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentdeletable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommenteditable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentmoderatable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_305" o:spid="_x0000_i1052" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><span class="js-singlecommentname2"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><strong><u>Halo</u></strong></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_306" o:spid="_x0000_i1051" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">>that goes for the frum as well as the fry. </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1"> </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">Frei (free in German) not fry </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1"> </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">>i happen to believe that when OTD's take such great pains to hide things from their parents, it's not out of love, but fear. </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1"> </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">I'd say it is a little of both</span> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt;">Thursday, March 19, 2009, 10:17:05 AM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;">– </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentflagable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentlikeable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Like</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentreplyable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Reply</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentdeletable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommenteditable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentmoderatable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_308" o:spid="_x0000_i1050" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><span class="js-singlecommentname2"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><strong><u>Anon</u></strong></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_309" o:spid="_x0000_i1049" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">>happen to believe that when OTD's take such great pains to hide things from their parents, it's not out of love, but fear. </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1"> </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">fear of what? Disappointing their parents?</span> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt;">Thursday, March 19, 2009, 12:36:31 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;">– </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentflagable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentlikeable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Like</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentreplyable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Reply</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentdeletable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommenteditable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentmoderatable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_311" o:spid="_x0000_i1048" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><span class="js-singlecommentname2"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><strong><u>Avi</u></strong></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_312" o:spid="_x0000_i1047" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">>Not really/Not at all. I really wanted him to be a lawyer/accountant/doctor but this is what he wants to do. </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1"> </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">This is not what he wants to do. The Yeshiva has taken over his mind and convinced HIM that this is what he wants to do. The Yeshiva world has created a bunch of ROBOTS . Unthinking ROBOTS who can only say what they Yeshiva tells them to say..... Avi</span> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt;">Thursday, March 19, 2009, 1:38:42 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;">– </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentflagable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentlikeable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Like</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentreplyable"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;">Reply</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentdeletable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommenteditable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span></span><span class="jsk-secondaryfontcolor1"><span style="display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6;"> – </span></span></span><span class="js-singlecommentmoderatable"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_314" o:spid="_x0000_i1046" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><span class="js-singlecommentname2"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><strong><u>Baal Habos</u></strong></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_315" o:spid="_x0000_i1045" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt;"><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">Tesyaa. </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1"> </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">>They think I made my life too hard (they happen to be right). </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1"> </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">Are you saying you regret it? </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1"> </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">> Since I'm confident I made the best choice for me, I'm not sure what's so great about having the angst. </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1"> </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">See my comment below to Kisarita </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1"> </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">> kids should not feel guilty by making a lifestyle choice that wasn't quite what their parents wanted. and the parents should get over it. </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1"> </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">Kisarita, I'll try to say it one more time. Everyone should feel to make their own choices. And they shouldn't feel guilty about it. It's not that they're doing anything wrong. But they should feel bad for disappointing. Thais is NOT the same as guilt. </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1"> </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">BTW, such nice namaes, Tesyaa & Kisarita. </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1"> </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1"> </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">>i happen to believe that when OTD's take such great pains to hide things from their parents, it's not out of love, but fear. </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1"> </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">I second anon's question, fear of what? Fear of how their parents will take it! Which is exactly my point. </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1"> </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">>I'd say it is a little of both </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1"> </span><br />
<span class="js-singlecommenttext1">What are you afreaid of?</span> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; vertical-align: middle;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; vertical-align: middle;"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> –</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_362" o:spid="_x0000_i1044" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Avi</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_363" o:spid="_x0000_i1043" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">What are you afreaid of?************************************** </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">That I made the wrong choice.,,,Avi</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Friday, March 20, 2009, 3:01:29 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_365" o:spid="_x0000_i1042" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Baal Habos</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_366" o:spid="_x0000_i1041" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">That's why you're not telling your Mommy?</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Friday, March 20, 2009, 3:28:34 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_368" o:spid="_x0000_i1040" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Halo</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_369" o:spid="_x0000_i1039" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">>What are you afreaid of? </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">I wasn't referring to myself per se. But someone who is still getting supported by their parents may fear getting cut off. As far as I'm concerned I'd rather not go through the whole drama for no good reason. If I could live my life more or less as I want and not hurt them, then that is the best of both worlds</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Friday, March 20, 2009, 5:23:23 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_371" o:spid="_x0000_i1038" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Halo</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_372" o:spid="_x0000_i1037" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">by the way, the same applies for me as far as my career is concerned. I may want to quit and live "off the land" for a while. but part of what stops me is society's and my parents wishes. I'm not saying it's the only reason, but it is a factor.</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Friday, March 20, 2009, 5:28:30 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_374" o:spid="_x0000_i1036" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">offthederech</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_375" o:spid="_x0000_i1035" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">I just want to point out to tesyaa and kisarita that it's not the same, going OTD and becoming a BT. When you go BT, you're only letting down your parents, you're not quite devastating them. Free choice is a value that is appreciated in secular culture, but hardly in the frum one. Also, to a frum parent it's often the end of the world if their kid goes OTD because they have all kinds of absolutist beliefs including the kid will spend an eternity in hell for the decision and countless other similar hangups which are hardly relevant to those who go BT.</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Saturday, March 21, 2009, 8:50:05 AM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_377" o:spid="_x0000_i1034" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Avi</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_378" o:spid="_x0000_i1033" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Also, to a frum parent it's often the end of the world if their kid goes OTD because they have all kinds of absolutist beliefs including the kid will spend an eternity in hell for the decision and countless other similar hangups which are hardly relevant to those who go BT. </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">offthederech | Homepage | 03.21.09 - 8:55 am | #************************************** Sorry, but that is not always the case. If you come from a frum family as I do and you go OTD there are plenty of people to judge you and feel sorry for you including your own kids. Do you have any idea how thorny an issue it is when your grandchildren ask you a question and you really are afraid to answer it. All I can do is say ask your father. And thjen the kid thinks, what is my grandfather hiding from me and why.....Avi</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Monday, March 23, 2009, 1:40:20 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_380" o:spid="_x0000_i1032" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Etan</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_381" o:spid="_x0000_i1031" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">I would disagree with you and say that there are people on both sides of the tracks. You think that all the people learning and letting down their parents are only the ones that learn, but the ones that marry shiksa are so worried about their parents? I know several people that married shiksas and didn't care about what their parents thought at all and didn't care what it would do. They wanted to live their lives. Also, I know several people that wanted to learn the rest of their life and either didn't or figured out a way that would be pleasing to their parents/in-laws. So, although I agree there are a lot of people that learn all day that are living off their parents and disappointing them, there are also people that marry shiksas that care nothing about their parents opinion and don't even try to convert and make some kind of compromise or even think about what they are doing to their parents.</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Saturday, April 25, 2009, 10:34:59 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_383" o:spid="_x0000_i1030" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">FrumJewinYU</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_384" o:spid="_x0000_i1029" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">GH, on what grounds do you base your claims that kids who decide to learn don't feel any regret about disappointing their parents? </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Also: </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">-> ...And even when parents do whine about it, they typically say, "If I were a millionaire and could afford to support all my kids in learning for life, I'd love to, but unfortunately I'm not able..." </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">What a cop-out! Pure PC drivel. Little Moishy Kollelboy is statistically very unlikely to be that one-in-a-thousand someone who actually learns 95% of their 10 hours worth of siddorim (or even 75%)---so Why? WHY would a parent "love" for their kid to live what is effectively a very undemanding, unstructured, unproductive (not to say lazy) existence, even if leavened with a few hours of real learning?! It's mindless, but there you go. </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">That's wrong. I agree that it's totally not for everybody, but for those for whom it's appropriate, Kollel is very productive. We (Orthodox Jews) believe that limud Torah keeps the world going. Also, I know plenty of Kollel guys (both in YU and in other yeshios), and I can assure you that the ones I know all keep AT LEAST 95% of their sedorim. I think it is insulting of you to assume that 9/10 of Kollel guys don't keep their sedorim. </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Let me state that I don't approve of people going to Kollel by leaching off their parents who can't afford it. I know a couple in my neighborhood who skimp on necessities in order to support their son, and I think it's absolutely despicable of the son to put his parents in that situation. But for the right person in the right circumstance, it's great.</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Saturday, April 25, 2009, 11:26:22 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_386" o:spid="_x0000_i1028" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">kisarita</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_387" o:spid="_x0000_i1027" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Fear of what? </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">-Fear of conflict </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">-Fear of being cut off </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">-fear of not being able to stick with our decision </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">-irrational existential fear of upsetting the status quo</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Sunday, April 26, 2009, 1:08:52 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_389" o:spid="_x0000_i1026" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">chloe</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_390" o:spid="_x0000_i1025" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">My farther is a horrible man and if I defend myself in anyway from his verbal attacks he says 'you're going straight to hell because you don't have any respect for me' what should I do</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div>G*3http://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6333352338723538012.post-40798074105468036072011-10-06T07:00:00.000-07:002011-10-06T07:00:25.775-07:00Five stages of Mourning OrthodoxyOriginally posted on The Skeptitcher Rebbe<br />
Sunday, October 24, 2010<br />
<a href="http://skeptitcherrebbe.blogspot.com/2010/10/five-stages-of-mourning-orthodoxy.html">Link</a><br />
<br />
<br />
I read a few things here and there about how there is some sort of grieving or mourning process when going OTD. Looking at the five stages of grief identified by the Kübler-Ross model:<br />
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1. Denial: This is the first reaction and it shows. Pretty much any Orthodox Jew who learns about evidence that contradicts the Orthodox worldview begins with this stage and many stay in this stage, I would argue for a large part of their lives. When the evidence that denies the validity of the Torah presents itself to an Orthodox Jew the reaction is to deny that the evidence is really credible or that it can be applied to refute the Torah. These sort of rationalizations are all too common. I was in this stage from the moment I became Orthodox and would constantly fall back to this first stage until recently. <br />
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2. Anger: When I began to argue with the non Orthodox world in favor of the Lubavitch worldview, I would present our "beautiful" Torah and it's "perfect" message. I thought this surely would bring those Jews who were not connected with Yiddishkeit into the fold, how could it not. The only reason they didn't already accept it is because they never heard of it before, I reasoned. When my views were challenged I fell into stage one, denial, where I brought my rather "weak" rationalizations of the apparent problems but presented them as strong evidence (although it was nothing of the sort). This may have gone on for a while back and forth until my rationalizations and denials ran dry, at which point I became angry. "Why are they being so stubborn?!" I would think to myself "They are just trying to be jerks/trolling/are in denial/etc!" I would honestly get very frustrated and very angry and occasionally it would come out in my posts as insults, but I would try to hold off on that and was usually pretty successful in being polite, with my pent up emotions still inside. Later I would often scream my frustration out in the car when I was driving home alone. Usually cursing and then feeling guilty about it later. It seems really silly now that I think about it, it was so childish like a baby who didn't get his way. Is that really what having the truth feels like? Usually over time I would ignore the issue and then start all the way back at square one, denial. Other times I would move forward just a bit. <br />
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3. Bargaining: Sometimes if the anger stage didn't revert me back to denial I would try a bit of bargaining in my approach. Sometimes I would bargain with G-d. I would ask G-d to give me the insight to show these lost Jews the beauty of Torah, the simcha of frumkeit, in return I would go out and help more Yidden become frum. Other times I would tell G-d I would learn more Chassidus, daven more, say tehillim, etc in order for Him to help me in my arguments. When this clearly failed to work I began bargaining in my arguments themselves. Well if only I became more open to their view points or if I said nice things about them or their posts in other more pareve topics I could win them over. I would compliment them, concede more often and go around and search for posts that I didn't disagree with and would praise their opinions. Maybe later they would do the same for me when I would argue a point as well. This also failed miserably and it was really stupid of me to think it would work. So what if someone was nice to you or whatever, non frum people being nice to me never moved my opinion about their views an iota so why should it do so for their opinions about my views. So when this failed I would either move backwards to anger or even denial. Rarely I moved forward. <br />
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4. Depression: When all of my efforts of rationalizing would fail, and venting my anger didn't work the final form of bargaining I tried led me to become really depressed. This was because I bargained that if I were to view this problem from the atheistic perspective, perhaps I would find the flaw in their thinking, but lo and behold I would find no flaw. How could this denial of the "truth" have no flaws? What am I doing wrong? Why is G-d not helping me? Why would G-d let the atheists win? At some points I would give up all hope and maybe over time forget about it all. Three times I moved forward. <br />
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5. Acceptance: What do I mean when I reached acceptance three times? Wouldn't the first acceptance be when I stopped believing? When I would reach this stage it was with different issues each time. First with the idea of Homosexuality. After much struggle I came to accept the fact that there was nothing wrong with Homosexuality. I accepted that people are just born differently and that there really is nothing wrong with being gay, and that to oppose it really is evil. How did this not break my faith in that the Torah which explicitly rejected this attitude, who knows. I mostly just put it out of my mind and didn't think about it. Later I came to accept that the creation story and the flood story were nonsense and totally incorrect. In a sort of Slifkinesque way I argued that this didn't affect the basic truth of the Torah and then went back to stage one. Finally I accepted that TMS didn't happen and that what I had been sold about the Torah was indeed false. Belief in TMS was always my foundation for believing in the truth of Yiddishkeit. Once that fell it all really fell. I have accepted that there is nothing divine about Yiddishkeit and that it was all man made. <br />
Although I no longer grieve over my faith in Torah, I am still grieving over my reduction in practice. I currently consider myself Orthoprax but I have a creeping feeling that me trying to hold on to Jewish tradition is nothing more than denial and rationalizations. I am still trying to figure that part out. Who knows, maybe at some point I will be in total acceptance of an atheistic lifestyle. All I know is that its hard to let go. <br />
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15 comments: <br />
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G*3 said... <br />
This is clever. <br />
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For the record, mourning doesn’t always include all of the stages, and there’s no particular order that they’re supposed to appear in (as implied by “moving forward” or “moving backward”). <br />
October 25, 2010 12:09 AM <br />
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Skeptitcher Rebbe said... <br />
I guess that makes more sense now. When I thought about this idea I felt that I skipped around between quite a lot. Now that I know they aren't meant to be in an order that makes more sense.<br />
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I probably could rewrite it to be more accurate with this new information, but I don't really care all that much to go through all that again. <br />
October 25, 2010 12:48 AM <br />
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Anonymous said... <br />
I went through much the same process falling out of Orthodoxy, except for me, the centrality of all five stages was my own sexuality. At age 16, I came out of the closet to my parents, apparently socially accepting Reform Jews. Before then, I had made a move toward more traditional Judaism in an effort to reexamine the faith I had abandoned briefly several years earlier, and was keeping an elementary form of Kashrus. After telling my parents about this new self discovery, they began throwing out reasons for why me being gay was a shanda for myself, for them, and for my newly found religiosity and observance. While none of what they had to say holds any water, at that point in my life, it was very convincing, and I decided I must be mistaken.<br />
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I strengthened my commitment to tradition, and when I arrived at college, gravitated towards Chabad and began observing the Mitzvos quite diligently. I never accepted the young earth concept or the flood story as told, and while I believed the concept of TMS, never felt it was central to my faith (remember I was brought up Reform, and to me that was just a nice idea, but not terribly important). My denial was primarily about my own orientation, and it persisted even as the other stages ebbed and flowed through my psyche.<br />
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I moved sporadically through the various stages, but the central denial never left. Around the end of my sophomore year, I accepted that I had homosexual desires, though believed they were merely a test and that my job was to overcome them. I believed (because I learned on several frumishe web sites) that if I were to pray and learn more, the feelings would go away. I would get angry when nothing helped and would sometimes look for more radical methods. I would bargain that if HaSham would remove from me even some of the feelings, either about specific individuals or overall, I would take on new chumras. I even took upon myself SN as an attempt at bargaining. I became very depressed at the thought that nothing was helping and that I was doomed to eventually falter and that there would be no help for me then. By the end of college, I had accepted that I would not be able to get rid of my sexual desires, and by the end of a period in Yeshiva, I had accepted that I would eventually have to let them play out, but still denied that I was gay.<br />
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It wasn't until a year after leaving Yeshiva that I finally came to accept myself as gay, but took several more months before I accepted that I would have to share this with anyone. Once I had finally come to accept both that I was gay and that I couldn't go on hiding the fact from everyone for the rest of my life, I began an extreme and rapid move through the stages, though this time the pervasive one was depression. Finally, after the support and acceptance of numerous friends, I finally came to full acceptance of myself, and that was when everything fell through. For me, perhaps, I was grieving first my sexuality, and only later, upon accepting that, my orthodoxy. I, apparently unlike you, still believe in God, but have taken the other approach and have abandoned most religious practices.<br />
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Thank you for the interesting post. It was a springboard for some wonderful self reflection. <br />
October 28, 2010 12:31 AM <br />
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Skeptitcher Rebbe said... <br />
Anon, <br />
<br />
Thank you for your comments, they were very moving.<br />
<br />
I am suprised at your parents reaction, being reform and all. Have they accepted your orientation yet? Are you on good terms?<br />
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I currently have a friend beginning to become a BT and she had told me initially that she was gay. Now it seems she plans on just putting it all behind her and to "become" straight. I am very nervous for her, because I am afraid she will have some very tough times ahead, especially if she decides to get married and have kids early on before making sure that this is the right path for her. Do you have any advice for me in this regard? Should I mention something to her or should I let her figure it out on her own? What would you have wanted done if you had a friend like me while you were still frum?<br />
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Thanks again. <br />
October 28, 2010 1:00 AM <br />
<br />
Anonymous said... <br />
I have not told my parents again this time around. Having made me as uncomfortable as they did the first time, I'm afraid what it will do now that I am coming from a place of actual acceptance of self and not simply new self discovery. On the one hand, they may now be fully accepting, but on the other, they may respond even more negatively than before. We are currently on very good terms and I hope to keep it that was as long as possible. It is a constant worry of mine, though.<br />
<br />
As for your friend, you are in an awkward position. Should you choose to say something to her, you could potentially destroy your friendship and/or send her into deep self denial. On the other hand, you could help enact change in her, allowing her to find self acceptance by seeing a friend who cares about her either way. Keep in mind that sexuality is not as static as some would have you believe, and while I was always attracted to men and hiding from that, there are those who do change. It is possible that her orientation has changed in her life, and you suggesting otherwise could be offensive to her. Also keep in mind that there are religious gay people and that this might be a fair community for her.<br />
<br />
I was never open enough to share with anyone that I had thought I was gay, and on the (originally) rare occasion that someone suggested it to me as a possibility, I went into full denial. That she is or has been open enough about her orientation in the past means there is some room for you to speak with her about it. If you feel you have a strong enough relationship that you could discuss it in a non-confrontational way, it might be positive. But no matter her response, it is your responsibility to be supportive. If her orientation has indeed changed, she needs supportive friends with whom she can speak openly. If it has not, she will eventually need someone to be there for her as she goes through the process of accepting it all over again.<br />
<br />
I hope that helps, and you are welcome to share my comments with her should you so choose. <br />
October 28, 2010 2:31 AM <br />
<br />
Skeptitcher Rebbe said... <br />
Anon,<br />
<br />
I hope that you are able to reconcile your relationship with your parents in a postive way. It must be very hard. I wish you all the best. You may already know this but I am sure there are support groups with people who are gay who had or are having similar dilemas. I am sure they could give you great advice on how to handle the situation.<br />
<br />
Thank you so much for your advice. I will have to dwell on this for a while. I think that I may wait some more to see how things progress before I begin any sort of conversation about it with her. My wife is closer with her than I am and since we haven't lived in the same city for a while it may seem akward. Anyways thanks again for the advice, it was very helpful. <br />
October 28, 2010 10:35 AM <br />
<br />
Anonymous said... <br />
I have no idea where I am on that scale, I suppose bouncing around denial and depression at the same time. Do you know of anyone who is considering going otd or who is otd who is willing to meet? I am still in the community but am struggling and would like to meet others with similar issues. I would like to make a meetup but am unsure how to proclaim a meetup and not fear getting outted before I'm ready!<br />
<br />
take care<br />
sdebeau@yahoo.com <br />
November 4, 2010 2:55 PM <br />
<br />
Balboa said... <br />
Interesting blog... Anon, I wish you could be comfortable with the idea of no go. it took me a while after I realized the tora was not divine to let go of god. it made me happy at first but it really isn't an easy thing to incorporate into one's life. <br />
December 26, 2010 2:57 AM <br />
<br />
Anonymous said... <br />
skeptitcher rebbe --<br />
<br />
you're still Jewish as Tevya!<br />
<br />
Tuvia <br />
March 29, 2011 4:28 AMG*3http://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.com1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6333352338723538012.post-9158643156311904982011-10-06T06:57:00.001-07:002011-10-06T06:57:55.451-07:00Undoubtedly Beyond Any Reason<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;">Originally posted on Divrei Acher</span></div><h2 style="margin: auto 0in;">Thursday, April 23, 2009</h2><div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;"><a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/04/undoubtedly-beyond-any-reason_23.html">Link</a></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><br />
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</div><h3 style="margin: 10pt 0in 0pt;"><a href="" name="4139031543927060213"></a> </h3><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><a href="http://www.feldheim.com/mas_assets/214x214/1583306498.jpg"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"><shapetype coordsize="21600,21600" filled="f" id="_x0000_t75" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" stroked="f"><stroke joinstyle="miter"></stroke><formulas><f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"></f><f eqn="sum @0 1 0"></f><f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"></f><f eqn="prod @2 1 2"></f><f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"></f><f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"></f><f eqn="sum @0 0 1"></f><f eqn="prod @6 1 2"></f><f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"></f><f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"></f><f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"></f><f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"></f></formulas><path gradientshapeok="t" o:connecttype="rect" o:extrusionok="f"></path><lock aspectratio="t" v:ext="edit"></lock></shapetype><shape alt="" href="http://www.feldheim.com/mas_assets/214x214/1583306498.jpg" id="_x0000_i1025" o:button="t" style="height: 24pt; width: 24pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; font-size: 15.5pt;">"Beyond a Reasonable Doubt"</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; font-size: 15.5pt;">by Rabbi Shmuel Waldman</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"><br />
<br />
I am ashamed to admit that I read through most of this book in the past few days. I did so because a certain Rav with whom I have a very good relationship asked me to read through it. Yes, I'm being Kiruved, but being that he is a very reasonable man whose companionship I value, I acquiesced to his request. Admittedly he is naive in having me read this, but that's his business.<br />
<br />
In any event, I must warn you before I launch into my Kefirotic tirade. I do so, because the author of the book himself warns against reading the book, or certain parts thereof, unless it's necessary. I'll paraphrase his warning, the gist of which is as follows:<br />
<br />
"Since I will be talking about things which Chas V'Sholom can Chas V'Sholom bring one Chas V'Sholom Chas V'Sholom to Chas V'Sholom Chas V'Sholom Chas V'Sholom doubt any part of the Holy Toira Chas V'Sholom Chas V'Sholom, I BS"D hope, and ask that only readers who already Lo Aleibu Chalila are having Chas V'Sholom d..d..oub..ts Chalila V'Chas V'Sholom Lo Aleinu open and read this book. If you've picked up this book, and you Baruch Hashem BS"D have no Sfeikois Cholilaa V'Chas about the holy Toira, I trust you will heed Daas Toira and drop this book, never to think of it again. So only those who Lo Aleinu Nebach Chas V'Sholom have a need to strengthen their Emuna against doubts Chas V'Sholom, are allowed to read this book."<br />
<br />
This is the warning, and having paid homage to it (in the spirit of Satmar websites banning the Internet), we proceed to 'critique' this masterpiece. The first three chapters are the main points being made; proofs of God's existence, proofs to the Torah, and proofs that there is punishment and an afterlife. These chapters and an appendix 'disproving' the theory of evolution are the main thrust of the book. Other gems of 'proofs' include 'proving' Moshiach, and the resurrection of the dead. In addition there are chapters about the uniqueness of Klal Yisroel, it's survival in exile, and the 'right' attitude towards the holocaust. I only read through the first two chapters, and an appendix titled "The Downfall of the Theory of Evolution". More than that I couldn't read, I hope the readers will forgive me.<br />
<br />
The first thing that struck me was the lack of command of the English language. It's written as if by a seventh grader. Now, I'm no professor of English, but a book of a few hundred pages should live up to some standards. Admittedly, a book shouldn't be judged by its cover or the writer's command of the language, it's content that matters, but it did leave a bad taste in my mouth. Alas, on the content front, it was immeasurably worse. I can hear the readers murmuring to themselves, "what was he expecting? It's a Kiruv book for goodness sake". True, and as mentioned I wasn't expecting much, I was reading it as a courtesy to this Rav. But this one was worse than anything else. I've read other Kiruv (or similar) books, some of them at least try to sound a bit knowledgeable of the subject matter they're discussing. Of the two main topics in the book, the theory of evolution, and the Torah's historicity and circumstances of its origin, he knows so little as to not even realize the immensity of ignorance he has to hide.<br />
<br />
Now to the subject matter.<br />
<br />
The first chapter, titled "Compelling Evidence of a Creator" starts of with the usual examples of the intricately complex and wonderfully interwoven systems found in nature. The orange and the banana, how they turn ripe and acquire a bright color at the same time, thereby attracting animals, as if knowing how to do so. From that he goes onto the Venus fly trap, bats and their system of echolocation, the complexity of the human body and the brain etc. All of this to show that it's statistically impossible for any of these phenomena to arise randomly. I assume all the readers know that, so I won't go into explaining why he was destroying a straw man. Waldman also realizes that for those 'tainted' by the theory of evolution as he puts it, one needs more than just showing the impossibility of generating such complex systems randomly. He writes that he intentionally didn't discuss the theory of evolution in the first chapter and left it in the appendix, so that only those who (Nebach, Chas V'Sholom) are in need for such refutations read them.<br />
<br />
So let's get to the appendix titled "The Downfall of the Theory of Evolution" and see if that gets us anywhere. He begins by differentiating between macroevolution and microevolution, how the latter occurs <i>within</i> a species, and the former leads to new species. Microevolution is an observed fact, but it doesn't necessarily lead to macroevolution, bla bla bla. Here we come to this piece of brilliance:<br />
<i>"It's interesting to note that in the 1980's many professional scientists decided to accept the facts as they saw them, and the facts clearly pointed to a God. So they developed </i>the <i>"anthropic principle" which suggests that the universe is "man-centered," created by God, with one of man's functions being the responsibility to recognize the amazing design that God put into the universe."</i><br />
What!?!? Does he know what the anthropic principle is. Where did here about it? I know that some people use the anthropic principle to argue for intelligent design, but scientists "developing the anthropic principle... which suggests the universe is created by God, with one of man's functions being the responsibility to recognize the amazing design that God... " how ignorant can you be. He doesn't have a library in town? A computer? But no, there is still more. Another quote:<br />
<i>"(theory: the Random House dictionary tells us that this is an explanation that has not yet been proven true)"</i><br />
Only ignoramuses use this definition of theory pertaining to evolution, any dictionary will use the theory of evolution as an example of a scientific system, proven by observations and experiments.<br />
<br />
The two basic problems he has with evolution, are mutations and the fossil record. Mutations, he rightfully notes, are almost always harmful. The problem is that he doesn't understand that given enough time, natural selection will favor those rare beneficial mutations, which can evolve into new species. This he conspicuously fails to mention.<br />
The fossil problem he divides in two. The first one is summed up in the following quote:<br />
<i>"Even in the lowest strata we find fossils of the most complex living forms which according to evolutionists couldn't have developed until a much later date."</i><br />
This claim as far as I know is not true, Waldman himself only quotes one source, also a sign that he couldn't find much more than that, because he loves to quote these type of things.<br />
If anyone has more information on this, please let me know.<br />
<br />
The second part of the fossil argument, is the beloved gap problem. I actually do think that there is a problem here, namely that the gaps seem to be large in many cases. What I mean is that, unlike Waldman who doesn't know what he is talking about when he clamors for his bird with half a wing, something that would never happen for obvious reasons. What I'm talking about is that often there are large gaps between specimen, something that one should find less of if all species fossilize randomly. What Waldman doesn't mention is the rarity of fossilization, and how some species are only known from a few fossils, which mitigates (although I think doesn't eradicate) the gap problem.<br />
<br />
The last point he discusses, is the age of the universe. Here we have another display of scholarship:<br />
<i>"It's also interesting to note that it has been shown that the methods that scientists use to date different material such as carbon dating, etc. have many inaccuracies."</i>I won't even discuss the<i> </i>nonsense this is based on, I think the readers are familiar with it, we all know that each of the dating methods are relatively accurate for their respective purposes. But this guy uses carbon dating inaccuracies to show the problem of dating the world as billions of years old. Does he even know what carbon dating is? Does he know anything about it except how to spell it? I'm afraid not. <i><br />
</i><br />
I do think that the theory of evolution has its shortcomings. First and foremost, as far as I'm concerned it doesn't explain the origin of life. I know all the supposed tries to do so, but they don't cut it for me. I haven't seen anything close to a satisfying explanation of the rise of self replicating systems, life's building blocks. This though doesn't disprove the theory of evolution, it just shows that the theory is either lacking, or not yet fully understood. If someone is so sure as to the only solution to this problem being God, so be it. I think it may be the only solution for now, but it also may be an answer based on ignorance rather than knowledge, because otherwise evolution has too much behind it.<br />
I also find it difficult at times to wrap my head around the idea that all of this complexity is a result of a blind mechanism. If someone feels that this also is only explainable by intelligent design, maybe. I have a suspicion it's unnecessary.<i><br />
</i>I think that an honest attempt to identify the shortcomings of the theory of evolution, based on a proper understanding of theory, would go only about as far as this paragraph. But obviously Waldman is writing a Kiruv book, and Chas V'Sholom that such a book be based on an actual understanding of science.<i><br />
</i>I think the post is already way longer than I originally intended, and I'm only half way through. I still didn't get to the real juicy part, chapter two: "The Divine Origin of the Torah." So stay tuned for that display of analytical thought. </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 16.8pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span class="post-author"><span style="color: #999999; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif"; font-size: 9.5pt; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;">Posted by </span></span><span class="fn"><span style="color: #999999; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif"; font-size: 9.5pt; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;">Acher</span></span><span class="post-author"><span style="color: #999999; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif"; font-size: 9.5pt; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"> </span></span><span class="post-timestamp"><span style="color: #999999; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif"; font-size: 9.5pt; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;">at </span></span><a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/04/undoubtedly-beyond-any-reason_23.html" title="permanent link"><span style="font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif"; font-size: 9.5pt; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;">3:26 AM</span></a><span class="post-timestamp"><span style="color: #999999; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif"; font-size: 9.5pt; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"> </span></span><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=4139031543927060213&from=pencil" title=""Edit Post" "><span style="display: none; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif"; font-size: 9.5pt; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; mso-hide: all; mso-no-proof: yes; text-transform: uppercase;"><shape alt="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/icon18_edit_allbkg.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=4139031543927060213&from=pencil" id="Picture_x0020_2" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1063" style="height: 13.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 13.5pt;" title=""Edit Post"" type="#_x0000_t75"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="icon18_edit_allbkg" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image002.gif"></imagedata></shape></span></a><span style="color: #999999; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif"; font-size: 9.5pt; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 16.8pt; margin: 12pt 0in; mso-outline-level: 5;"><a href="" name="comments"></a><span style="color: #222222; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; font-size: 11.5pt;">=========================================================</span><b><span style="color: #999999; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 2.4pt; text-transform: uppercase;"></span></b></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 16.8pt; margin: 12pt 0in; mso-outline-level: 5;"><b><span style="color: #999999; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 2.4pt; text-transform: uppercase;">20 comments: </span></b><b><span style="color: #999999; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; font-size: 12pt; letter-spacing: 2.4pt; text-transform: uppercase;"></span></b></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="" name="c3954922003738815955"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/16415028859483212296"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/16415028859483212296" id="Picture_x0020_3" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1062" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="b16-rounded" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/16415028859483212296"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"><span style="color: #5588aa;">Rabbi Pinky Schmeckelstein</span></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"> said... </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 0in 0in 9pt 0.5in;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";">You are a Minuval who is sullying the name of skeptics the world over. Surprising you got past the second page of such drivel... </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 16.8pt; margin: 0in 0in 24pt 0.5in;"><a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/04/undoubtedly-beyond-any-reason_23.html?showComment=1240517460000#c3954922003738815955" title="comment permalink"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><span style="color: #5588aa;">April 23, 2009 4:11 PM </span></span></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=3954922003738815955" title=""Delete Comment" "><span style="display: none; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; mso-hide: all; mso-no-proof: yes; text-transform: uppercase;"><shape alt="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=3954922003738815955" id="Picture_x0020_4" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1061" style="height: 9.75pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 9.75pt;" title=""Delete Comment"" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="icon_delete13" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="" name="c9054460611205320754"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12944580668112674433"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhm9cBfVTitjyVsJifhRPgvgWtkDpynHAqDQj5u9tMs6j5ExDgYadP0I2HyGSF-NW3s4soY4X3LBwMof_NERJmX0wbEIpJ4I-pE7D9Q7gt9pUWRz1Qm_FjXiSXVmfTGPH1G_5SPGQ-UgQ/s45/democritus_1628_Brugghen.jpg" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12944580668112674433" id="Picture_x0020_5" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1060" style="height: 26.25pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 26.25pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="democritus_1628_Brugghen" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image005.jpg"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12944580668112674433"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"><span style="color: #5588aa;">Acher</span></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"> said... </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 0in 0in 9pt 0.5in;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";">I admit to my sins. <br />
What can I do, I promised the man I'd read it, but once I read as much as I could, I had to get it off my chest. Hence the lengthy post. </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 16.8pt; margin: 0in 0in 24pt 0.5in;"><a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/04/undoubtedly-beyond-any-reason_23.html?showComment=1240518060000#c9054460611205320754" title="comment permalink"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><span style="color: #5588aa;">April 23, 2009 4:21 PM </span></span></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=9054460611205320754" title=""Delete Comment" "><span style="display: none; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; mso-hide: all; mso-no-proof: yes; text-transform: uppercase;"><shape alt="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=9054460611205320754" id="Picture_x0020_6" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1059" style="height: 9.75pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 9.75pt;" title=""Delete Comment"" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="icon_delete13" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="" name="c4142721218996799769"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/16415028859483212296"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/16415028859483212296" id="Picture_x0020_7" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1058" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="b16-rounded" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/16415028859483212296"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"><span style="color: #5588aa;">Rabbi Pinky Schmeckelstein</span></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"> said... </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 0in 0in 9pt 0.5in;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";">I have had a realization recently about guys like this and arguments like these: They are looking for scientific certitude on issues of faith. We live in an age of science and empiricism which, I personally woul argue, do not exclude the Divine. But they are a completely seperate notion: In my opinion, evolution addresses the "How", but theology, philosophy, etc. address the "Why". So you can believe in God or not, but that is a separate issue from the science of the development of life. But when fundamentalists try to prove the "Why" at a scientific level, they only harm their own credibility with "rationalists". BTW, I love your depiction of the author's forewarnings... though I think you missed one "Chas V'Sholom". </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 16.8pt; margin: 0in 0in 24pt 0.5in;"><a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/04/undoubtedly-beyond-any-reason_23.html?showComment=1240518720000#c4142721218996799769" title="comment permalink"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><span style="color: #5588aa;">April 23, 2009 4:32 PM </span></span></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=4142721218996799769" title=""Delete Comment" "><span style="display: none; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; mso-hide: all; mso-no-proof: yes; text-transform: uppercase;"><shape alt="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=4142721218996799769" id="Picture_x0020_8" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1057" style="height: 9.75pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 9.75pt;" title=""Delete Comment"" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="icon_delete13" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="" name="c2052586284885863347"></a><a href="" name="c4948290404031637767"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12944580668112674433"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhm9cBfVTitjyVsJifhRPgvgWtkDpynHAqDQj5u9tMs6j5ExDgYadP0I2HyGSF-NW3s4soY4X3LBwMof_NERJmX0wbEIpJ4I-pE7D9Q7gt9pUWRz1Qm_FjXiSXVmfTGPH1G_5SPGQ-UgQ/s45/democritus_1628_Brugghen.jpg" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12944580668112674433" id="Picture_x0020_11" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1056" style="height: 26.25pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 26.25pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="democritus_1628_Brugghen" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image005.jpg"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12944580668112674433"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"><span style="color: #5588aa;">Acher</span></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"> said... </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 0in 0in 9pt 0.5in;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";">Oy vey, Hashem Yishmerenu (Chas V'Sholom).<br />
<br />
>In my opinion, evolution addresses the "How", but theology, philosophy, etc. address the "Why".<br />
<br />
But don't you think that these are becoming bankrupt, if they even were ever viable. In other words, what makes you think there is a 'why'. </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 16.8pt; margin: 0in 0in 24pt 0.5in;"><a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/04/undoubtedly-beyond-any-reason_23.html?showComment=1240519860000#c4948290404031637767" title="comment permalink"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><span style="color: #5588aa;">April 23, 2009 4:51 PM </span></span></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=4948290404031637767" title=""Delete Comment" "><span style="display: none; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; mso-hide: all; mso-no-proof: yes; text-transform: uppercase;"><shape alt="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=4948290404031637767" id="Picture_x0020_12" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1055" style="height: 9.75pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 9.75pt;" title=""Delete Comment"" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="icon_delete13" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="" name="c99214659949595268"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/08579277373594440827"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/08579277373594440827" id="Picture_x0020_13" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1054" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="b16-rounded" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/08579277373594440827"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"><span style="color: #5588aa;">Hasidic Rebel</span></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"> said... </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 0in 0in 9pt 0.5in;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";">Good post. Re your own problem with evolution, I don't think that's an issue of evolutionary theory per se, since natural selection and adaptation don't apply (at least not in the conventional sense) to non-living molecular structures. I don't think evolution even purports to explain that puzzle, nor do I think it ever will. <br />
<br />
The answer will most likely be found in a new theory that will synthesize a completely different set of observable data from that which led to Darwin's theory. </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 16.8pt; margin: 0in 0in 24pt 0.5in;"><a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/04/undoubtedly-beyond-any-reason_23.html?showComment=1240563960000#c99214659949595268" title="comment permalink"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><span style="color: #5588aa;">April 24, 2009 5:06 AM </span></span></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=99214659949595268" title=""Delete Comment" "><span style="display: none; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; mso-hide: all; mso-no-proof: yes; text-transform: uppercase;"><shape alt="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=99214659949595268" id="Picture_x0020_14" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1053" style="height: 9.75pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 9.75pt;" title=""Delete Comment"" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="icon_delete13" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="" name="c5206463232957124242"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjaJG4yf0gELN8Ci5p1rwWUY1hqhmh2QcqOsvSNVZ0OZEAvOnqM-dsiiTaWFqzaKTQfhuHIiVhieLpsuA3EwzVtJ_tTYOy24gBZV27oGu9q-0Tacu1f1Js02ktkqRNX6VaI2aoy-Rn-1Kw/s45/2836686_e1c8ccb40a_m.jpg" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457" id="Picture_x0020_15" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1052" style="height: 26.25pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 26.25pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="2836686_e1c8ccb40a_m" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image007.jpg"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"><span style="color: #5588aa;">The Hedyot</span></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"> said... </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 0in 0in 9pt 0.5in;"><a href="http://bit.ly/5si3j"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"><span style="color: #5588aa;">This book</span></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"> might help. I just took it out from the NYPL. </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 16.8pt; margin: 0in 0in 24pt 0.5in;"><a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/04/undoubtedly-beyond-any-reason_23.html?showComment=1240592940000#c5206463232957124242" title="comment permalink"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><span style="color: #5588aa;">April 24, 2009 1:09 PM </span></span></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=5206463232957124242" title=""Delete Comment" "><span style="display: none; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; mso-hide: all; mso-no-proof: yes; text-transform: uppercase;"><shape alt="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=5206463232957124242" id="Picture_x0020_16" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1051" style="height: 9.75pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 9.75pt;" title=""Delete Comment"" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="icon_delete13" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="" name="c7683978375097467366"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12944580668112674433"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhm9cBfVTitjyVsJifhRPgvgWtkDpynHAqDQj5u9tMs6j5ExDgYadP0I2HyGSF-NW3s4soY4X3LBwMof_NERJmX0wbEIpJ4I-pE7D9Q7gt9pUWRz1Qm_FjXiSXVmfTGPH1G_5SPGQ-UgQ/s45/democritus_1628_Brugghen.jpg" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12944580668112674433" id="Picture_x0020_17" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1050" style="height: 26.25pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 26.25pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="democritus_1628_Brugghen" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image005.jpg"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12944580668112674433"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"><span style="color: #5588aa;">Acher</span></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"> said... </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 0in 0in 9pt 0.5in;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";">HR,<br />
<br />
Correct, the origin of life is not covered by evolutionary theory because it works through natural selection, which manifests itself on existing self replicating systems. Although, some have tried to explain the origin of life through similar methods. Regardless, what I mean is the self-evolving/random generation of life, as opposed to a directed/engineered explanation of it. I think that God may still be the only answer at the moment, but, I think it's an answer from ignorance rather than one based on knowledge. It's a last resort, in other words not really an answer. </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 16.8pt; margin: 0in 0in 24pt 0.5in;"><a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/04/undoubtedly-beyond-any-reason_23.html?showComment=1240593420000#c7683978375097467366" title="comment permalink"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><span style="color: #5588aa;">April 24, 2009 1:17 PM </span></span></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=7683978375097467366" title=""Delete Comment" "><span style="display: none; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; mso-hide: all; mso-no-proof: yes; text-transform: uppercase;"><shape alt="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=7683978375097467366" id="Picture_x0020_18" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1049" style="height: 9.75pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 9.75pt;" title=""Delete Comment"" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="icon_delete13" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="" name="c7134842295088497417"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12944580668112674433"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhm9cBfVTitjyVsJifhRPgvgWtkDpynHAqDQj5u9tMs6j5ExDgYadP0I2HyGSF-NW3s4soY4X3LBwMof_NERJmX0wbEIpJ4I-pE7D9Q7gt9pUWRz1Qm_FjXiSXVmfTGPH1G_5SPGQ-UgQ/s45/democritus_1628_Brugghen.jpg" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12944580668112674433" id="Picture_x0020_19" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1048" style="height: 26.25pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 26.25pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="democritus_1628_Brugghen" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image005.jpg"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12944580668112674433"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"><span style="color: #5588aa;">Acher</span></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"> said... </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 0in 0in 9pt 0.5in;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";">><i>This book might help</i>Help for what? Do you mean for a better general understanding of the theory of evolution (I could certainly use help there as well), or for a specific problem. From the amazon page I didn't see anything in the description talking about the origin of life. Or do you mean the fossil record: gaps, stratification? </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 16.8pt; margin: 0in 0in 24pt 0.5in;"><a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/04/undoubtedly-beyond-any-reason_23.html?showComment=1240593960000#c7134842295088497417" title="comment permalink"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><span style="color: #5588aa;">April 24, 2009 1:26 PM </span></span></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=7134842295088497417" title=""Delete Comment" "><span style="display: none; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; mso-hide: all; mso-no-proof: yes; text-transform: uppercase;"><shape alt="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=7134842295088497417" id="Picture_x0020_20" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1047" style="height: 9.75pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 9.75pt;" title=""Delete Comment"" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="icon_delete13" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="" name="c5385257677158239569"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/08579277373594440827"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/08579277373594440827" id="Picture_x0020_21" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1046" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="b16-rounded" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/08579277373594440827"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"><span style="color: #5588aa;">Hasidic Rebel</span></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"> said... </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 0in 0in 9pt 0.5in;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";">Hedyot, I'm actually reading Coyne's book right now. It's a good read, written mostly in non-technical, layman-friendly language. But I don't like his polemical ax against Creationism; I believe science, when doing science, should remain dispassionate.<br />
<br />
But it won't answer Acher's question on the origin of life. For that, try this one: </span><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Genesis-Scientific-Quest-Lifes-Origins/dp/030910310X"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"><span style="color: #5588aa;">Genesis: The scientific quest for the origin of life</span></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";">. </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 16.8pt; margin: 0in 0in 24pt 0.5in;"><a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/04/undoubtedly-beyond-any-reason_23.html?showComment=1240597140000#c5385257677158239569" title="comment permalink"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><span style="color: #5588aa;">April 24, 2009 2:19 PM </span></span></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=5385257677158239569" title=""Delete Comment" "><span style="display: none; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; mso-hide: all; mso-no-proof: yes; text-transform: uppercase;"><shape alt="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=5385257677158239569" id="Picture_x0020_22" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1045" style="height: 9.75pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 9.75pt;" title=""Delete Comment"" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="icon_delete13" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="" name="c1158189957750064773"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/16415028859483212296"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/16415028859483212296" id="Picture_x0020_23" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1044" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="b16-rounded" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/16415028859483212296"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"><span style="color: #5588aa;">Rabbi Pinky Schmeckelstein</span></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"> said... </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 0in 0in 9pt 0.5in;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";">"But don't you think that these are becoming bankrupt, if they even were ever viable. In other words, what makes you think there is a 'why'."<br />
<br />
I am not arguing whether or not there is a God, I am just saying that the physics/ mechanics of the world is a separate question from theology and philosophy. I reject the notion that says: If there is a Creator > Then evolution must be false. But I would also disagree with a statement that says: If evolution is true > Then there must not be a Creator. Again -- my argument is made out of logic, not theology. </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 16.8pt; margin: 0in 0in 24pt 0.5in;"><a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/04/undoubtedly-beyond-any-reason_23.html?showComment=1240607580000#c1158189957750064773" title="comment permalink"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><span style="color: #5588aa;">April 24, 2009 5:13 PM </span></span></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=1158189957750064773" title=""Delete Comment" "><span style="display: none; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; mso-hide: all; mso-no-proof: yes; text-transform: uppercase;"><shape alt="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=1158189957750064773" id="Picture_x0020_24" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1043" style="height: 9.75pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 9.75pt;" title=""Delete Comment"" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="icon_delete13" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="" name="c8081601027925268915"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12944580668112674433"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhm9cBfVTitjyVsJifhRPgvgWtkDpynHAqDQj5u9tMs6j5ExDgYadP0I2HyGSF-NW3s4soY4X3LBwMof_NERJmX0wbEIpJ4I-pE7D9Q7gt9pUWRz1Qm_FjXiSXVmfTGPH1G_5SPGQ-UgQ/s45/democritus_1628_Brugghen.jpg" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12944580668112674433" id="Picture_x0020_25" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1042" style="height: 26.25pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 26.25pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="democritus_1628_Brugghen" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image005.jpg"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12944580668112674433"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"><span style="color: #5588aa;">Acher</span></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"> said... </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 0in 0in 9pt 0.5in;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";">>But I would also disagree with a statement that says: If evolution is true > Then there must not be a Creator. <br />
<br />
Strictly speaking yes. But it makes God and a purposeful world less likely and more superfluous. </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 16.8pt; margin: 0in 0in 24pt 0.5in;"><a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/04/undoubtedly-beyond-any-reason_23.html?showComment=1240613640000#c8081601027925268915" title="comment permalink"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><span style="color: #5588aa;">April 24, 2009 6:54 PM </span></span></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=8081601027925268915" title=""Delete Comment" "><span style="display: none; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; mso-hide: all; mso-no-proof: yes; text-transform: uppercase;"><shape alt="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=8081601027925268915" id="Picture_x0020_26" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1041" style="height: 9.75pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 9.75pt;" title=""Delete Comment"" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="icon_delete13" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="" name="c478812450412995609"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/07447700678656460299"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_V1HYhMQgvXA/SZdNDrHnegI/AAAAAAAAANI/2luDbI4dz80/S45/shtreimel1.jpg" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/07447700678656460299" id="Picture_x0020_27" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1040" style="height: 26.25pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 26.25pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="shtreimel1" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image009.jpg"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/07447700678656460299"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"><span style="color: #5588aa;">Shtreimel</span></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"> said... </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 0in 0in 9pt 0.5in;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";">How you made it to the appendix is beyond me. Someone got for me as a 'gift' (similar premise to yours) and it took me a chapter or two. I had it in my car for ages - one day, I thought, I will finish it. It now lays somewhere on the streets of this great city waiting for an unsuspecting soul. </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 16.8pt; margin: 0in 0in 24pt 0.5in;"><a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/04/undoubtedly-beyond-any-reason_23.html?showComment=1240614600000#c478812450412995609" title="comment permalink"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><span style="color: #5588aa;">April 24, 2009 7:10 PM </span></span></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=478812450412995609" title=""Delete Comment" "><span style="display: none; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; mso-hide: all; mso-no-proof: yes; text-transform: uppercase;"><shape alt="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=478812450412995609" id="Picture_x0020_28" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1039" style="height: 9.75pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 9.75pt;" title=""Delete Comment"" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="icon_delete13" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="" name="c6475903993755700864"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12944580668112674433"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhm9cBfVTitjyVsJifhRPgvgWtkDpynHAqDQj5u9tMs6j5ExDgYadP0I2HyGSF-NW3s4soY4X3LBwMof_NERJmX0wbEIpJ4I-pE7D9Q7gt9pUWRz1Qm_FjXiSXVmfTGPH1G_5SPGQ-UgQ/s45/democritus_1628_Brugghen.jpg" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12944580668112674433" id="Picture_x0020_29" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1038" style="height: 26.25pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 26.25pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="democritus_1628_Brugghen" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image005.jpg"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12944580668112674433"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"><span style="color: #5588aa;">Acher</span></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"> said... </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 0in 0in 9pt 0.5in;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";">Well I didn't read it from cover to cover through the appendix. That particular appendix is basically part of chapter one, so I had to get the complete picture. I ended up reading about half the book. </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 16.8pt; margin: 0in 0in 24pt 0.5in;"><a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/04/undoubtedly-beyond-any-reason_23.html?showComment=1240616580000#c6475903993755700864" title="comment permalink"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><span style="color: #5588aa;">April 24, 2009 7:43 PM </span></span></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=6475903993755700864" title=""Delete Comment" "><span style="display: none; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; mso-hide: all; mso-no-proof: yes; text-transform: uppercase;"><shape alt="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=6475903993755700864" id="Picture_x0020_30" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1037" style="height: 9.75pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 9.75pt;" title=""Delete Comment"" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="icon_delete13" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="" name="c1659842286581337951"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/09944061608450443441"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjHWna0yKQFM6RlRVuK28HVD1KqSHJnLKx0YR8DOO2-FLspNmlDeidCIm01Q7BHqfZUGvCG27wLFTkPrNEI2CUcppiJB75ExfdtLrL6UsiVCT38i3jm4B6byXgpopr6UYkJ7WaqEPL3waA/s45/IMG_4834_2.JPG" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/09944061608450443441" id="Picture_x0020_31" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1036" style="height: 26.25pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 26.25pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="IMG_4834_2" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image011.jpg"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/09944061608450443441"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"><span style="color: #5588aa;">eitz hadaas</span></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"> said... </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 0in 0in 9pt 0.5in;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";">Hey Acher,<br />
This Rabbi Waldmen was my English teacher in UTA. He came the first day to class with a grapefruit in his pocket and had us look at the complex packets in it. He was a little Avigdor Miller wannabe. <br />
<br />
Anyway, HR and Acher.<br />
<br />
What you (HR) write about "natural selection and adaptation don't apply (at least not in the conventional sense) to non-living molecular structures" I think it does since (as I already mentioned to you once, I believe) that Darwinian theory is a statement about rising complexity in any kind of system. Meaning, that in any system the state of survival will become the "good" state, and it itself will be the reward. Any member of the system that utilizes the surroundings best will be favored, in the sense that it will survive.<br />
<br />
While on the molecular level there isn't the reproductive factor, as molecules don't reproduce, there is still the adaptability factor as a chemical bonds can break apart and form new bonds (the likes of which an organism can't do, since the only way an organism can change is through the next generation).<br />
<br />
And while molecules and their components may or may not have the longest lifespan, the chemical equilibrium they are in does. Therefore the equilibrium sets a standard by which the system selects its components.<br />
<br />
I agree that Darwinian Biology and Darwinism as it is used in pop culture refers to the question of bio diversity not bio genesis. However, an understanding of Darwinian systematics (how any exclusive system will produce Darwinian designed forms) should follow through even on the molecular level.<br />
<br />
While this idea complicates somethings, since it would mean that tho origin of life was a necessary result of the organization of the primordial soup, not an accidental. Stanley Miller tried to explain and demonstrate that but his experiment design has been questioned.<br />
<br />
And Acher, about the fossil gaps. You might want to look up S.J. Gould's paper on Punctuated Equilibrium http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_comes-of-age.html </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 16.8pt; margin: 0in 0in 24pt 0.5in;"><a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/04/undoubtedly-beyond-any-reason_23.html?showComment=1240721520000#c1659842286581337951" title="comment permalink"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><span style="color: #5588aa;">April 26, 2009 12:52 AM </span></span></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=1659842286581337951" title=""Delete Comment" "><span style="display: none; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; mso-hide: all; mso-no-proof: yes; text-transform: uppercase;"><shape alt="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=1659842286581337951" id="Picture_x0020_32" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1035" style="height: 9.75pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 9.75pt;" title=""Delete Comment"" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="icon_delete13" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="" name="c2974769774006523524"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12944580668112674433"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhm9cBfVTitjyVsJifhRPgvgWtkDpynHAqDQj5u9tMs6j5ExDgYadP0I2HyGSF-NW3s4soY4X3LBwMof_NERJmX0wbEIpJ4I-pE7D9Q7gt9pUWRz1Qm_FjXiSXVmfTGPH1G_5SPGQ-UgQ/s45/democritus_1628_Brugghen.jpg" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12944580668112674433" id="Picture_x0020_33" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1034" style="height: 26.25pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 26.25pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="democritus_1628_Brugghen" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image005.jpg"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12944580668112674433"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"><span style="color: #5588aa;">Acher</span></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"> said... </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 0in 0in 9pt 0.5in;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";">EH,<br />
<br />
Thanks for stopping by.<br />
I won't insist on whether the principle of natural selection can be applied to non-self-replicating systems. I don't think that the present state of knowledge allows us to extend the principle of natural selection to non-self-replicating systems. As to Stanley Miller, I actually had the Miller-Urey experiment in mind when I wrote that proposed explanations of the origin of life are inadequate according to my limited understanding. Miller-Urey only shows that it's theoretically conceivable that complex organic compounds will arise under certain conditions. That's a far cry from self-replicating systems. I'm not saying that these are inherently different in nature, and a Miller-Urey like experiment can't explain their origin. What I'm saying is that I don't currently see an explanation. </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 16.8pt; margin: 0in 0in 24pt 0.5in;"><a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/04/undoubtedly-beyond-any-reason_23.html?showComment=1240726380000#c2974769774006523524" title="comment permalink"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><span style="color: #5588aa;">April 26, 2009 2:13 AM </span></span></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=2974769774006523524" title=""Delete Comment" "><span style="display: none; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; mso-hide: all; mso-no-proof: yes; text-transform: uppercase;"><shape alt="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=2974769774006523524" id="Picture_x0020_34" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1033" style="height: 9.75pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 9.75pt;" title=""Delete Comment"" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="icon_delete13" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="" name="c8853123055525862043"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiG0oxZZS_bqRM7-kgvZRKHbxwknIa7SOQpbl2VNgfCKJ8ZXcCRi2gX3OsO8Q9oPDZXMag5N0m9ibqJMyDr30DwPU6vA8kjzFggUhX_0BMkdv1YtaxJKsJRv15OkeuGm2H3DRn5l7Aik-A/s45/ortho.jpg" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384" id="Picture_x0020_35" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1032" style="height: 26.25pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 26.25pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="ortho" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image013.jpg"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"><span style="color: #5588aa;">Orthoprax</span></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"> said... </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 0in 0in 9pt 0.5in;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";">Acher,<br />
<br />
It isn't evolutionary theory that's involved in abiogenesis-related hypotheses per se. There are a number of different competing ideas out there but none, as you rightly state, which seem to really have a lock on the issue.<br />
<br />
This issue though has little bearing on the question of God's existence. The simple fact that the universe has the characteristics that make it possible for these first units of life to form could suggest a "guiding hand" just as thoroughly as an inexplicable arrival of life in the universe. <br />
<br />
If anything, the less we need to appeal to supernatural intervention, the more suggestive is the proposition of an overriding "plan." After all, God shouldn't need to intervene on a perfectly planned creation. </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 16.8pt; margin: 0in 0in 24pt 0.5in;"><a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/04/undoubtedly-beyond-any-reason_23.html?showComment=1240816800000#c8853123055525862043" title="comment permalink"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><span style="color: #5588aa;">April 27, 2009 3:20 AM </span></span></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=8853123055525862043" title=""Delete Comment" "><span style="display: none; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; mso-hide: all; mso-no-proof: yes; text-transform: uppercase;"><shape alt="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=8853123055525862043" id="Picture_x0020_36" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1031" style="height: 9.75pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 9.75pt;" title=""Delete Comment"" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="icon_delete13" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="" name="c7622175153021565410"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12944580668112674433"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhm9cBfVTitjyVsJifhRPgvgWtkDpynHAqDQj5u9tMs6j5ExDgYadP0I2HyGSF-NW3s4soY4X3LBwMof_NERJmX0wbEIpJ4I-pE7D9Q7gt9pUWRz1Qm_FjXiSXVmfTGPH1G_5SPGQ-UgQ/s45/democritus_1628_Brugghen.jpg" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12944580668112674433" id="Picture_x0020_37" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1030" style="height: 26.25pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 26.25pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="democritus_1628_Brugghen" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image005.jpg"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12944580668112674433"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"><span style="color: #5588aa;">Acher</span></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"> said... </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 0in 0in 9pt 0.5in;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";">Orthoprax,<br />
<br />
All true. I, as do many others, have a tendency to fall back on God when coming to a dead end. I think that this is an answer based on ignorance, although I'm not sure. Maybe there are some questions that require that answer. I grow more and more skeptical of this possibility, but you never know. That was essentially my point. </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 16.8pt; margin: 0in 0in 24pt 0.5in;"><a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/04/undoubtedly-beyond-any-reason_23.html?showComment=1240889760000#c7622175153021565410" title="comment permalink"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><span style="color: #5588aa;">April 27, 2009 11:36 PM </span></span></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=7622175153021565410" title=""Delete Comment" "><span style="display: none; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; mso-hide: all; mso-no-proof: yes; text-transform: uppercase;"><shape alt="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=7622175153021565410" id="Picture_x0020_38" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1029" style="height: 9.75pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 9.75pt;" title=""Delete Comment"" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="icon_delete13" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="" name="c3411929537919563381"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/00637936588223855248"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/00637936588223855248" id="Picture_x0020_39" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1028" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="b16-rounded" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/00637936588223855248"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"><span style="color: #5588aa;">Joshua</span></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"> said... </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 0in 0in 9pt 0.5in;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";">Regarding microevolution and macroevolution. Whenever anyone claims that speciation hasn't been observed my favorite thing to do is point out that in fact the evidence for speciation is so overwhelming that AIG, one of the world's largest young earth creationist ministries, lists it as an argument that creationists should not use http://www.answersingenesis.org/get-answers/topic/arguments-we-dont-use which generally trips them up pretty well. </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 16.8pt; margin: 0in 0in 24pt 0.5in;"><a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/04/undoubtedly-beyond-any-reason_23.html?showComment=1241137260000#c3411929537919563381" title="comment permalink"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><span style="color: #5588aa;">April 30, 2009 8:21 PM </span></span></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=3411929537919563381" title=""Delete Comment" "><span style="display: none; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; mso-hide: all; mso-no-proof: yes; text-transform: uppercase;"><shape alt="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=3411929537919563381" id="Picture_x0020_40" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1027" style="height: 9.75pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 9.75pt;" title=""Delete Comment"" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="icon_delete13" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="" name="c1703691859449769978"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/17815538809825229710"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/17815538809825229710" id="Picture_x0020_41" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1026" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="b16-rounded" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/17815538809825229710"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"><span style="color: #5588aa;">Frum Heretic</span></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"> said... </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 0in 0in 9pt 0.5in;"><a href="http://frumheretic.blogspot.com/2008/09/whip-him-good.html"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"><span style="color: #5588aa;">King Shlomo</span></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"> was right that there is nothing new under the sun: the anti-evolution stuff is just more moronic recycled bullcrap. <br />
<br />
BTW, an absolutely wonderful book to check out is Donald Prothero's Evolution: What the Fossils Say and Why It Matters. </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 16.8pt; margin: 0in 0in 24pt 0.5in;"><a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/04/undoubtedly-beyond-any-reason_23.html?showComment=1241188260000#c1703691859449769978" title="comment permalink"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><span style="color: #5588aa;">May 1, 2009 10:31 AM </span></span></a></div>G*3http://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6333352338723538012.post-55798764281100903382011-10-06T06:56:00.000-07:002011-10-06T06:56:38.187-07:00Produce<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;">Originally posted on Baal Habos</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><b><span style="color: #881100; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt; letter-spacing: 2.4pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; text-transform: uppercase;"><span style="color: black;">28 March 2009</span></span></b></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;"><a href="http://baalhabos.blogspot.com/">Link</a></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><br />
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
<br />
It just came to me suddenly as I was contemplating the produce section in my local supermarket.<br />
<br />
How did Rabbinic Judaism, ever get off the ground on the first place?<br />
<br />
Imagine, if you will. Chaim Yankel comes home from the First Congregation Anshe Yavneh Shul around 10:30 Shabbos morning in the year 101 AD.<br style="mso-special-character: line-break;" /><br style="mso-special-character: line-break;" /></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #666666; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">"Shprintze, I'm home.."<br />
<br />
"You're so late!"<br />
<br />
"Well," he said, "we had a new Rav in shul today, and he made us repeat the shmoneh Esrai"<br />
<br />
"You're kidding. What for?"<br />
<br />
"He called it chazoras Hashatz".<br />
<br />
"Hmmm", she says as she re-arranges the table.<br />
<br />
"You can't do that"<br />
<br />
"Why not?"<br />
<br />
"That's Muktzeh!"<br />
<br />
"What's that?"<br />
<br />
"Err, never mind..."<br />
<br />
She rushes to kiss him.<br />
<br />
"Stop!"<br />
<br />
"What's the matter?"<br />
<br />
"You're a Niddah!"<br />
<br />
What?<br />
<br />
"You're a Niddah."<br />
<br />
"No I'm not. I'm a Zavah." <br />
<br />
"Not anymore you ain't. And we now have Harchakos."</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
<br />
The next day, Chaim Yankel, whose kids were all married off, found himself signing up at the "<i>Second</i> Congregation Anshe Yavneh". <br />
<br />
The Reish Gelusah is not getting to first base with his mispalelim, no matter what kind of believers they are. It's my experience that even the believers are skeptics to new concepts, gezeiros, etc.<br />
<br />
But! The Resh Gelusa will have success in introducing this "stuff" to the kinderlach in yeshiva.<br />
<br />
It is the kinderlach who look at the bowl of fruit and refuse to eat the strawberries. </span></div><div style="background: #eeeeee; border-bottom: #eeeeee 1pt solid; border-left: #bbbbbb 1pt dotted; border-right: #bbbbbb 1pt dotted; border-top: #bbbbbb 1pt dotted; mso-border-alt: dotted #BBBBBB .75pt; mso-border-bottom-alt: solid #EEEEEE .75pt; mso-element: para-border-div; padding-bottom: 2pt; padding-left: 22pt; padding-right: 11pt; padding-top: 2pt;"><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #eeeeee; border-bottom: medium none; border-left: medium none; border-right: medium none; border-top: medium none; line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-border-alt: dotted #BBBBBB .75pt; mso-border-bottom-alt: solid #EEEEEE .75pt; mso-padding-alt: 2.0pt 11.0pt 2.0pt 22.0pt; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: 0in; padding-right: 0in; padding-top: 0in;"><span style="color: #666666; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">posted by Baal Habos @ </span><a href="http://baalhabos.blogspot.com/2009/03/produce.html" title="permanent link"><span style="color: #bb3300; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">3/28/2009</span></a><span style="color: #666666; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div></div><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;">===================================================<shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_12" o:spid="_x0000_i1064" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image002.png"></imagedata></shape></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Apikores</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_13" o:spid="_x0000_i1063" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">It's true, they get you by using the kids. My sister came home from cheder one day and said we have to start keeping cholov yisroel, and I never saw an oreo again.</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Sunday, March 29, 2009, 1:27:42 AM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_15" o:spid="_x0000_i1062" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image002.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Pen Tivokeish</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_16" o:spid="_x0000_i1061" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Culture and dogma evolve in small incremental steps. I bet your zeideh didn't eat the kezeisim matzoh in two minutes "betoch kedi achilas prass". </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Halachic Judaism of old, must have been radically different to what it is today. Chazal clearly redefined the fundamentals within Halacha, often due to the restrictions imposed upon them by their rulers. The way we deal with converts as a consequence of the ban by Constantine preventing the Jews from proselytising shows this. (The need for a ban seems to indicate that we used to proselytise.) As does the Talmud's attempt to render almost meaningless any biblical command for capital punishment. The practice was common in Biblical times, and later. </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">However it seems that they did away with the theoretical death penalty, because they had lost jurisdiction over it, when the Romans took over, hundreds of years before. </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Subsequently, after Chazal, the reformation process became less bold, and has turned into a process of refinery rather than reform. Each generation by asking new questions, pin pointing the contradictions within law, and issuing new revised rulings based upon the new answers and distinctions. This coupled with, the codification process, the organisation of the chaotic quagmire of Talmudic law , into a code of law, a process set in motion by the Geonim as early as 1200 years ago, is how the evolution of Jewish Law has been progressing steadily. </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">However, the challenges any budding Rabbi, a millennia ago would have faced in his quest to become a true scholar, would have been monumental prior to the printing press. The refinement of Halacha was at first, a painfully slow process. Come along the printing press, that process was vastly accelerated. Then even more so by mass literacy, and the postal system.</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Sunday, March 29, 2009, 9:44:41 AM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_18" o:spid="_x0000_i1060" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image002.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Mark</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_19" o:spid="_x0000_i1059" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">>It is the kinderlach who look at the bowl of fruit and refuse to eat the strawberries. </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">How true that is, it's also true of adults who are like Kinderlach. </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">As for your poll, I didn't vote on it because you didn't give a choice with a high enough percentage. Not that I really think that it is higher than 3%, but I think it's definitely a possibility.</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Sunday, March 29, 2009, 9:57:15 AM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_21" o:spid="_x0000_i1058" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image002.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">ej</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_22" o:spid="_x0000_i1057" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">It's not just kosher... any system that is interested in keeping the body pure goes from chumrah to chumrah. I have been talking to people who practice Chinese medicine and you won't believe what they think is dangerous. If you say you microwave they give you a look like " why even bother living if you are such an idiot." Meat they hold to be worse than smoking. Microwaving frozen chulent wrapped in plastic...you might as well eat cardboard...in fact cardboard is considered much healthier.</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Sunday, March 29, 2009, 1:30:04 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_24" o:spid="_x0000_i1056" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image002.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Baal Habos</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_25" o:spid="_x0000_i1055" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">>Subsequently, after Chazal, the reformation process became less bold, and has turned into a process of refinery rather than reform. </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">I think my point is a valid one. Other than Baalei Tshuvah, I can't envision how even people of strong faith were mekabel upon themselves such innovations as Harchakos or Muktsa. It's not even like Strawberries or Internet accces. I can see a ban on that taking place under the guise that our forbears would have done the same had the Internet sprung up 1,000 years ago or that bugs were supposedly around 1,000 years ago. But imagine your Rav comes home and says from now on, as a Gezeira, Photography is prohibited. How would that take root? Only in the new generation.</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Sunday, March 29, 2009, 2:18:05 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_27" o:spid="_x0000_i1054" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image002.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">G*3</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_28" o:spid="_x0000_i1053" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">"How did Rabbinic Judaism, ever get off the ground on the first place? </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">" </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Slowly. Though adults will go along with an awful lot of things if an authority tells them to. There are many people who now don't eat strawberries. Or who filter their water. In a hundred years strawberries will be trief. In a thousand kosher water will be sold all over the world, and the only ones who will remember it started in New York with a few zealots will be theological historians and those on the fringes of frumkeit. These skeptics will be told that those who held tapwater was kosher were minority opinion, or that what they said is being misinterpreted. After all, who do they think they are, suggesting that an achron could be mistaken?</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Sunday, March 29, 2009, 2:39:33 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_30" o:spid="_x0000_i1052" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image002.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Baal Habos</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_31" o:spid="_x0000_i1051" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">G*3, yes, my comment at 3:23 today. Strawberries are different.</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Sunday, March 29, 2009, 2:50:39 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_33" o:spid="_x0000_i1050" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image002.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">G*3</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_34" o:spid="_x0000_i1049" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">I see your point. I'm not so sure, though, that people would reject even a large change. The trick would be to couch it in familiar terms. Take your photography example. It could be argued that displaying pictures of women is untznius. (Note the absence of pictures of women from the Yated, or the incident with the shietel store last year.) If it is innapropriate to display these pictures, it may be inaproptiate to take the pictures because they might be seen. in a few decades taking pictures of women is assur. </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Now, if one cannot take pictures of women, what about young girls? Best to be machmir and avoid that. The jump to assuring photographs of men is a bit harder, but tznius in theory applies to men as much as women, and once it is established that, for women, allowing someone to take your picture is untznius, a man who is very careful with halacha will also not allow his picture to be taken. This will eventually spread to the general population, and in a few centuries it will be forgotten that frum Jews ever allowed their picture to be taken. </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Paintings and engravings of frum events made in the 17th and 18th centuries often show womens' elbows and collarbones. Many even show cleavage. Most frum people are unaware of this, and if they come across such pictures assume that these people were on the fringes of frum society.</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Sunday, March 29, 2009, 4:46:23 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=2f43b42fd833d1e77420a8dae7419000&default=//js-kit.com/avatar/gxpA99f0jKlohF_DgthroT-48x48.png&rating=X&size=48x48" id="Picture_x0020_38" o:spid="_x0000_i1048" style="height: 36pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 36pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="gxpA99f0jKlohF_DgthroT-48x48" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image005.png"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_39" o:spid="_x0000_i1047" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image002.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Baal Habos</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_40" o:spid="_x0000_i1046" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">> in a few decades taking pictures of women is assur. </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Right, it's a generational thing.</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Sunday, March 29, 2009, 11:44:44 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://js-kit.com/avatar/gxpA99f0jKlohF_DgthroT-48x48.png" id="Picture_x0020_41" o:spid="_x0000_i1045" style="height: 36pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 36pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="gxpA99f0jKlohF_DgthroT-48x48" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image005.png"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_42" o:spid="_x0000_i1044" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image002.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Mark</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_43" o:spid="_x0000_i1043" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">> in a few decades taking pictures of women is assur. </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">It's already frowned upon judging by the famous picture of the Chofetz Chaim's family were the two women were digitally removed.</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Monday, March 30, 2009, 12:11:30 AM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_45" o:spid="_x0000_i1042" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image002.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Baal Devarim</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_46" o:spid="_x0000_i1041" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">"<i>The Reish Gelusah is not getting to first base with his mispalelim, no matter what kind of believers they are.</i>" </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">I don't think many new rules were announced one day out of the blue. Rather, most of them probably evolved over time (and space), in different communities and under different conditions. By the time the rule was officially adopted most people were familiar with it and some even might have kept it for generations prior. </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">(That is not the way it would necessarily be written centuries later when it was officially recorded in written form: So-and-so decreed this is Muktzah. But I think it likely that most religious concepts evolved and were not abruptly introduced by an authority figure.)</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Monday, March 30, 2009, 11:26:01 AM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_48" o:spid="_x0000_i1040" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image002.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Bruce</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_49" o:spid="_x0000_i1039" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">David Kraemer delivered a lecture at the JTS last year on "Jewish Eating and Jewish Identity". He argued that a lot of these chumras evolved over time, and their effect --- if not their explicit purposes --- was not only to separate Jews from non-Jews, but also Jews from other Jews. That is, when there is an ideological division in the Jewish community, one group imposes additional restrictions on food, and that serves as a boundary between "us" and "them". </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">I believe he also has a book out on the same topic. </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">I can't evaluate the historical argument, but it seems to make sense at least in some cases.</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Monday, March 30, 2009, 12:48:57 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_51" o:spid="_x0000_i1038" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image002.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Bruce</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_52" o:spid="_x0000_i1037" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Here's a link to a podcast of his lecture: </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><a href="http://tinyurl.com/cqqdc5"><span style="color: #bb3300; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">http://tinyurl.com/cqqdc5</span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Monday, March 30, 2009, 12:49:42 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_54" o:spid="_x0000_i1036" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image002.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">e-kvetcher</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_55" o:spid="_x0000_i1035" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Here is an </span><a href="http://search-for-emes.blogspot.com/2008/04/seven-clean-days.html"><span style="color: #bb3300; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">old post of mine</span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> talking about a theory by R' Elman for the niddah stringencies.</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; vertical-align: middle;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; vertical-align: middle;"><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> –</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=2578ba62e3f4d7f6814c930f1cec8018&default=//js-kit.com/avatar/gxpA99f0jKlohF_DgthroT-48x48.png&rating=X&size=48x48" id="Picture_x0020_119" o:spid="_x0000_i1034" style="height: 36pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 36pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="gxpA99f0jKlohF_DgthroT-48x48" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image005.png"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_120" o:spid="_x0000_i1033" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image002.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">letz</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_121" o:spid="_x0000_i1032" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">>Many even show cleavage. </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Yes, whether in times of boom or... bust</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Monday, March 30, 2009, 5:33:59 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=2f43b42fd833d1e77420a8dae7419000&default=//js-kit.com/avatar/gxpA99f0jKlohF_DgthroT-48x48.png&rating=X&size=48x48" id="Picture_x0020_122" o:spid="_x0000_i1031" style="height: 36pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 36pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="gxpA99f0jKlohF_DgthroT-48x48" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image005.png"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_123" o:spid="_x0000_i1030" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image002.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Baal Habos</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_124" o:spid="_x0000_i1029" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Letz, come on you can do better than that. </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">>I don't think many new rules were announced one day out of the blue... </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">It's difficult to envision someone accepting upon himself Harchkos or Muktsah if he did not believe it was an old established custom. </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">> He argued that a lot of these chumras evolved over time </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Ditto to above. </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">> That is, when there is an ideological division in the Jewish community, one group imposes additional restrictions on food, and that serves as a boundary between "us" and "them". </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">I find that fascinating! </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">> Here's a link to a podcast of his lecture: </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">I'll try to check that out. </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">> Here is an old post of mine talking about a theory by R' Elman for the niddah stringencies. </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">I remember that. Doesn't contradict what I'm saying.</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Monday, March 30, 2009, 7:36:32 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_126" o:spid="_x0000_i1028" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image002.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Holy Hyrax</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_127" o:spid="_x0000_i1027" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">I don't believe it ever "got off the ground." It is something complex that happened way before what we call "chazal." I believe Halivni has it right when he says by the time the Jews returned from Persia there was already a need for "interpretation" in order for them to actually keep the law. This in affect is what laid the foundation for what we call "rabbinic judaism"</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 1:33:04 PM</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">– </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Flag</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Like</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Reply</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Delete</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Edit</span><span style="color: #c6c6c6; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;"> – </span><span style="color: #333333; display: none; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hide: all;">Moderate</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/stars/admin-comment.png" id="Picture_x0020_129" o:spid="_x0000_i1026" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><imagedata o:title="admin-comment" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image002.png"></imagedata></shape></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">G*3</span></u></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://cdn.js-kit.com/images/icon10-external-url.png" id="Picture_x0020_130" o:spid="_x0000_i1025" style="height: 7.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 7.5pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"> <imagedata o:title="icon10-external-url" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></shape></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">> Right, it's a generational thing. </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Okay, you're right, it definitly takes a few generations for this kind of thing to take hold. My point was more that it isn't only the children who buy into these things, but the adults too. Its just that an adult will only move to the right so much. A child takes his parents' practices as the baseline, and as an adult will move a little more to the right. His child will then take those practices as a baseline, and then move a little... </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">So basicly you're right, but the adults are definitly buying into the chumras.</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></div></span><b><u><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Verdana", "sans-serif"; font-size: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"></span></u></b>G*3http://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6333352338723538012.post-14862209730547901682011-10-05T09:24:00.000-07:002011-10-05T09:24:14.039-07:00Why were/are you Religious?<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;">Originally posted on Divrei Acher</span></div><h2 style="margin: auto 0in;">Thursday, April 30, 2009</h2><div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;"><a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/04/why-wereare-you-religious.html">Link</a></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><br />
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</div><h3 style="margin: 10pt 0in 0pt;"><a href="" name="5259277099321675623"></a> </h3><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";">In the last week I've run into a few discussions as to the basis of our religious beliefs/practices. Over at </span><a href="http://www.haloscan.com/comments/adelstein/381043347297132847/#51753"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"><span style="color: blue;">this</span></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"> thread at </span><a href="http://www.threejews.net/2009/04/new-understandings-of-old-books.html"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"><span style="color: blue;">Three Jews, Four Opinions</span></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"> I had an exchange with Evanston Jew which turned on the basis for a sustainable Judaism.<br />
<br />
I won't focus as much on what brand of Judaism is sustainable in the long run (if any). What I want to explore is the reasons we believed/believe in whatever religious beliefs we have/had. I had a discussion with a former Chossid last week, and we were talking about why we were Frum. In the end it came down to the difference between our upbringing; he was a Chossid, I wasn't. Now let's backtrack, why are/were we Frum, or better yet religious, regardless of particular orientation.<br />
<br />
For the purposes of this discussion, I will combine the possible reasons for belief in two categories:<br />
<br />
1) Because one believes in the truth claims of, and evidence for one's religion, which logically brings one to follow it since it is the right path based on the truth.<br />
<br />
2) Because one feels a spiritual/emotional connection with his religion. It speaks to him, it fulfills some need in his 'soul' if you will.<br />
<br />
Within the two categories may lie a wide variety of people, laymen and clergy, the more and less intelligent, the old and the young, newcomers and people born into their faith. Let's explore each category separately. In the first category we have people who believe in the historical claims of their faith, be it God's existence, revelation, an afterlife, divine providence and so forth. Based on these beliefs, they understand that they have an obligation to follow the prescriptions of their faith. Going against their faith would mean defying God, and doing harm to oneself. It must be noted that people in this category need not be mechanical robots. They could have a very thorough understanding of how and why the practices of their religion are meaningful and carry a weight that gives them an actual impact on reality. Nevertheless, the basic foundation of their belief is the factual truth claims of their faith, in which they believe. Why they believe in these claims varies from person to person. Some simply take it as a matter of tradition or authority, others have taken it upon themselves to investigate the matter, and have come to the conclusion that the tenets of their faith are logically deducible. Regardless, the deciding factor in their belief is a conviction in the truthfulness of these claims for whatever reason.<br />
<br />
In the second category we have people who feel that the spirit of their faith speaks to them. They get some inner fulfillment from their religious practices or beliefs, or the see their faith as some manifestation of how they see and feel the cosmos. Here we also have a wide variety of people. For example some have a strong desire in helping their fellow man. They see this as the ultimate goal in man's life, and their religion is the channel through which they express this goal. Others may think of God and his connection to man, and employ their faith as an arena where this manifests itself. The common thread is that these people feel that their faith fulfills them in some way, which is independent of the particular truth claims of their given religion. In other words, if they were to become convinced of the falsehood of positions their faith holds as true, and that all the particular facts that it puts forth as proofs of its veracity in fact never happened, they would still be left with the basic reason for continuing with their religion. It would still speak to them on some level.<br />
<br />
The differences are not as easy to perceive as it may seem. For example people in the former category can be stereotyped as those that get hung up on insignificant details at the expense of internalizing their faith's main message. The latter group can be generalized as those who are floating in the clouds, without a grasp on reality. But the opposite may in fact be true. Certainly these generalization are often true. Nevertheless, some people may be very pedantic in their faith, thinking that these minor details carry some cosmological significance (Mekubbolim for example). Others may have a very rationalistic approach to their faith, which is solidly built upon the findings of their investigation. And in spite of believing that all the laws and practices of their religion are a product of God's will, they may attach little importance to them, preferring to focus on the fundamentals.<br />
<br />
Now which faith is stronger, more sustainable. It would certainly seem that the latter kind of faith, which is based on the heart and is part of the person himself rather than some external reasons, which are always subject to change. But it isn't that simple. For some, the latter path is not an option. There is no inner feeling that is strong enough to nurture a whole religion. There simply isn't anything there. This is the type of faith I had. Truth be told, it was very strong in its time. Why, because I truly believed in the main tenets of the Torah, and as a logical consequence felt obligated to follow the Torah. I did have somewhat of a connection to the religion on an emotional level, but it was very insignificant. Consequently, when my conviction that the Torah's claims about revelation, history, and God were either false or a guess just as good as anyone's, the floor was taken from under my faith. I remember that the only tough time I had on an emotional rather than intellectual level during my transition, was when it hit me that there is no afterlife. I couldn't eat or sleep for three days, but after that I was as fresh as spring flower. But this was the only faith I could have had. And when the foundation went, I was left with nothing but hot air.<br />
<br />
This is how I am, and I know that there are others who would say the same for themselves. If someone is to say that it's shallow, I won't argue. I will say though that the other way is too speculative. I don't mean to trade barbs. I mean to point out that it depends on the person. What for me was based on a clear and (what I believed then) an airtight logic, is to you shallow. And what for you is a life based on spirituality and an inner sense of self and the world, is to me baseless speculation and Chalomos.<br />
<br />
EJ, on the aforementioned thread seemed surprised at my remark, and wrote:<br />
<i>"No one, not one, ever says what you say "I am or was religious but not spiritual."</i><br />
<br />
Well you have one, and I think that there are more. I won't argue with you if you meant that no one ever says that "I was religious but not <b>at all</b> spiritual" but you seem to be implying that spirituality is an important and even self sustaining factor for everyone. With this I strongly disagree. Some people are decidedly "nonspiritual" in the sense that it plays a very minor if any role in their life. By spiritual, I mean something that can't be grasped either by the senses or the intellect, something in the soul (again, for lack of a better term).<br />
<br />
I hope I got the main idea across, it's a hard line to pinpoint. For this post, I ask the readers to comment more than other times, because I think we can clarify the issue with a view from different angles. </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 16.8pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span class="post-author"><span style="color: #999999; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif"; font-size: 9.5pt; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;">Posted by </span></span><span class="fn"><span style="color: #999999; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif"; font-size: 9.5pt; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;">Acher</span></span><span class="post-author"><span style="color: #999999; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif"; font-size: 9.5pt; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"> </span></span><span class="post-timestamp"><span style="color: #999999; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif"; font-size: 9.5pt; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;">at </span></span><a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/04/why-wereare-you-religious.html" title="permanent link"><span style="font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif"; font-size: 9.5pt; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;">3:27 PM</span></a><span class="post-timestamp"><span style="color: #999999; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif"; font-size: 9.5pt; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"> </span></span><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=5259277099321675623&from=pencil" title=""Edit Post" "><span style="color: #5588aa; display: none; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif"; font-size: 9.5pt; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; mso-hide: all; mso-no-proof: yes; text-decoration: none; text-transform: uppercase; text-underline: none;"><shapetype coordsize="21600,21600" filled="f" id="_x0000_t75" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" stroked="f"><stroke joinstyle="miter"></stroke><formulas><f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"></f><f eqn="sum @0 1 0"></f><f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"></f><f eqn="prod @2 1 2"></f><f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"></f><f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"></f><f eqn="sum @0 0 1"></f><f eqn="prod @6 1 2"></f><f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"></f><f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"></f><f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"></f><f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"></f></formulas><path gradientshapeok="t" o:connecttype="rect" o:extrusionok="f"></path><lock aspectratio="t" v:ext="edit"></lock></shapetype><shape alt="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/icon18_edit_allbkg.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=5259277099321675623&from=pencil" id="Picture_x0020_1" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1028" style="height: 13.5pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 13.5pt;" title=""Edit Post"" type="#_x0000_t75"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="icon18_edit_allbkg" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.gif"></imagedata></shape></span></a><span style="color: #999999; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif"; font-size: 9.5pt; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 16.8pt; margin: 12pt 0in; mso-outline-level: 5;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 16.8pt; margin: 12pt 0in; mso-outline-level: 5;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; font-size: 11.5pt;">=========================================================</span><b><span style="color: #999999; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 2.4pt; text-transform: uppercase;"></span></b></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 16.8pt; margin: 12pt 0in; mso-outline-level: 5;"><b><span style="color: #999999; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 2.4pt; text-transform: uppercase;">2 comments: </span></b><b><span style="color: #999999; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; font-size: 12pt; letter-spacing: 2.4pt; text-transform: uppercase;"></span></b></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="" name="c351630199167124806"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12339214545349794973"><span style="color: #5588aa; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; mso-no-proof: yes; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;"><shape alt="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12339214545349794973" id="Picture_x0020_2" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1027" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="b16-rounded" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image002.gif"></imagedata></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12339214545349794973"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"><span style="color: blue;">evanstonjew</span></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"> said... </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 0in 0in 9pt 0.5in;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";">Acher...you are a man of your word. You promised a post and voila here's the post. First and briefly I want to put to bed our earlier conversation. We are talking at cross purposes. I accept your report that your relationship to Orthodoxy was intellectual, religious but not spiritual. And I agree within Orthodoxy and even within shul going Conservatives and Reform there are others just like you. (See the Heschel on Lieberman quip in a recent post on Hirhurim.) I was talking about a different group, begining with the median of Jewish life, and my proof text was how people represent themselves on Match where most everyone can't say the words Jewish and religious without an excuse and an apology. One of my concerns is how to frame Torah and tradition for that community which at this point is around two thirds of the Jewish people. They hang by this thread of spirituality, and without tying this spirituality to our mesorah it is not Jewish. <br />
<br />
One more point...I reject the intellectual-spiritual dichotomy. There are many I would call neither intellectual nor spiritual but determined. People who through very bad times and good times remained committed to keeping mitzvot. They refuse to fold. Plain people, but very good Jews. <br />
<br />
I want to turn to another aspect of your general view. You said two days ago on XGH "If someone does not accept the divinity of the Torah, he doesn't have a Torah...my advice to people is, if you're an Apikores, man up and admit it... It's their rules and they get to decide who fits in and who doesn't."<br />
<br />
Neither Tanach, nor the Talmud nor any sefer is, as far as I can tell, owned by anyone. They are books in the public domain and part of the legacy of the entire Jewish people. It is for each Jew and his stripe to read, interpret these books in the way they choose. Why is it impossible to read kabbalah in a naturalistic way? A sefer can't exactly dictate how it is to be used, read or misread. Shakespeare can't command that his tragedy Romeo and Juliet not be turned into West Side Story.<br />
<br />
Why is it good or sane advice to "man up" and acknowledge out of the blue that one is an apikoris. Are there inquisitions being held daily in Monsey? Are they drilling into people's heads in Lakewood to discover their beliefs? Yaakov Avinu who deceived his own father is bivchinat emes. He didn't volunteer anything more than he needed to get the bracha. Why should a Jew trying to get along in a frum world say witness to ideas that will get him kicked out, shamed and depreciated in front of his family? Why? And why is this self destructive behavior an essential part of masculinity?<br />
<br />
It is true any stripe, say charedim, can make a rule that govern who is a member. But why should someone who has left with no intention of returning to the group continue to understand and define himself by those rules. A Reform or secular Jew doesn't say "I admit I am an apikoris." What he says is that under the rules used by Orthodoxy, and selectively at that, he would be counted as an apikoris.<br />
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I feel the task when a frum person leaves Orthodoxy is not to remain what he was but with a negation sign attached, but rather to create the new ideals and values that will best fit with who he is and who he will become. Allowing the Orthodox to brand who he is, accepting the appellation apikoiris which goes frequently together with shaiygitz and oisvorf, becomes an obstacle to the process of self discovery and self creation. Emerson would not approve. </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 16.8pt; margin: 0in 0in 24pt 0.5in;"><a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/04/why-wereare-you-religious.html?showComment=1241212200000#c351630199167124806" title="comment permalink"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><span style="color: blue;">May 1, 2009 5:10 PM </span></span></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=351630199167124806" title=""Delete Comment" "><span style="color: #5588aa; display: none; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; mso-hide: all; mso-no-proof: yes; text-decoration: none; text-transform: uppercase; text-underline: none;"><shape alt="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=351630199167124806" id="Picture_x0020_3" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1026" style="height: 9.75pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 9.75pt;" title=""Delete Comment"" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: blue;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="icon_delete13" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.gif"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="" name="c5580424188858132201"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12944580668112674433"><span style="color: #5588aa; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; mso-no-proof: yes; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;"><shape alt="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhm9cBfVTitjyVsJifhRPgvgWtkDpynHAqDQj5u9tMs6j5ExDgYadP0I2HyGSF-NW3s4soY4X3LBwMof_NERJmX0wbEIpJ4I-pE7D9Q7gt9pUWRz1Qm_FjXiSXVmfTGPH1G_5SPGQ-UgQ/s45/democritus_1628_Brugghen.jpg" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12944580668112674433" id="Picture_x0020_4" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1025" style="height: 26.25pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 26.25pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: blue;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="democritus_1628_Brugghen" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.jpg"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12944580668112674433"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"><span style="color: blue;">Acher</span></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"> said... </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 0in 0in 9pt 0.5in;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";">EJ,<br />
</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Times New Roman", "serif";">על</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Times New Roman", "serif";">ראשון</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Times New Roman", "serif";">ראשון</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";">, </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Times New Roman", "serif";">ועל</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Times New Roman", "serif";">אחרון</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Times New Roman", "serif";">אחרון</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"><br />
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I think the first two parts of your comment, namely where you refer to most people whose Jewishness hangs by a thread of spirituality, and secondly that there are those who are neither spiritual nor intellectual, can be taken together. I want to reiterate that just because someone cares to call their connection to Judaism spiritual, doesn't carry that much weight in reality. This is often an easy and neutral way of describing yourself, which doesn't have any strong religious connotation on the one hand, while allowing for some connection to one's past. It's about these people that it's proper to say that they are neither spiritually nor intellectually religious. what it really is, is a cultural connection to one's past, and a social thing. Some are spiritual, but again as you say about Poshuter Yidden, I say about your Match.com profiles, Es Meint Gornit.<br />
<br />
Secondly, those who you say stayed through thick and thin and remained committed to Mitzvos. I don't think that people go through all that without it having some deep foundation. I was careful to note in my post, that the two types of people include those who may not stop and think much about what they're doing, but if you ask them, they will give a justification, however simple minded it is. And I take what they say seriously, at some level, because of the commitment they exhibit, so it's not just empty words of a person trying to write a nice profile of themselves. <br />
<br />
><i>It is for each Jew and his stripe to read, interpret these books in the way they choose.</i>I happen to disagree with this statement, because I believe that if someone is ascribing a view to an author, they should do justice to the author, and not present him in a way that is contrary to his intent. But I won't get into that. My barb on XGH was much more narrowly targeted.<br />
<br />
What was the discussion there? XGH claimed it incredible that the London Bes-Din ruled that someone who denies the divinity of the Torah can not participate in the community (basically). To which some commenter mentioned that there are Rishonim who would disagree with the ruling, a la RAVAD in Hilchos Tshuvah, or Marc Shapiro's book. To which I wrote that these have absolutely no bearing on someone who denies the divinity of the Torah. That's qualitatively different than any technical disagreement on the boundaries of Apikorsus. <br />
That's why I can't stand when people quote disagreements in Halachah such as this in regards to someone who denies the Torah's divinity. It's just so disingenuous. Getting back to the point. Given that this is the unanimous traditional Halachic opinion, why should we be surprised if an orthodox Bes-Din rules accordingly. Isn't an orthodox Bes-Din by definition bound by Halachah? <br />
This is what I meant by "manning up." It seems that some people can't face the facts, and try to distort them. I simply can't stand for this.<br />
<br />
Now if someone realizes this and wants to stay within Frum society, Avadah he shouldn't scream from the rooftops. I don't do it, and neither should others. And if an orthodox Rabbi wants to disagree with the London Bes-Din, as does XGHs Rabbi, Gezei Gezunt. I think it's great and it would do many Jews well if they expanded orthodoxy, the only brand of Judaism that seems to work (without getting into a particular flavor thereof).<br />
<br />
I also agree that it's very important not to become just someone who is NOT Frum. My only requirement is: don't distort the facts. That's it. It's the only thing I ask for. After that, you're free as a bird. </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 16.8pt; margin: 0in 0in 24pt 0.5in;"><a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/04/why-wereare-you-religious.html?showComment=1241220540000#c5580424188858132201" title="comment permalink"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><span style="color: blue;">May 1, 2009 7:29 PM </span></span></a></div>G*3http://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6333352338723538012.post-90060593289638949192011-10-05T09:21:00.001-07:002011-10-05T09:21:41.411-07:00Morality! What's the Hangup?<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;">Originally posted on Divrei Acher</span></div><h2 style="margin: auto 0in;">Wednesday, May 20, 2009</h2><div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;"><a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/05/morality-whats-hangup.html">Link</a></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><br />
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</div><h3 style="margin: 10pt 0in 0pt;"><a href="" name="1035684406490002736"></a> </h3><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";">First I would like to apologize for my absence from the blogsphere the last week plus. I've been extremely busy and haven't had the time to write or even think much. For now I'll just put up some random stuff that's been in my head, and I hope to post something more coherent in the coming days.<br />
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As the title of the post suggests, I want to know why people who have otherwise renounced religion and the belief that life has meaning (or at least recognize that there is no convincing reason to think it has one), continue to have this hangup when it comes to morality. The most annoying manifestation of this is arguments against the Torah because of its failing to pass our moral scrutiny. Fallacious arguments rub me the wrong way, and none is more fallacious than this. By whose standards of morality are we judging the Torah? By modern standards, which are subject to change just as those of 1,000 BC and 1,000 AD changed to become what we recognize today as western morals. I assume the reader recognizes that barring divine instruction, morals are inherently subjective. Why then do people, who are relatively thought out and don't argue logically indefensible positions, continue to make this logically unjustifiable argument over and over again. Is the conception of core morality so ingrained in us that even when we try considering its merits in a detached manner, we seem to be unable to do so?<br />
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Vus Nuch. I think there is gotta be some kind of satirical representation of the debacle of the "big three." Maybe the "Three Little Pigs" but that's not a good comparison on two counts: 1) Can we really credit Ford with that much forethought? 2) Ford didn't help anyone, and can a corporation ever be compared to a little pig fighting a wolf?<br />
Maybe the "Three Stooges"? Their financial management definitely qualifies. Anyway that's that for now, hope to keep them coming on a more regular basis. </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 16.8pt; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span class="post-author"><span style="color: #999999; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif"; font-size: 9.5pt; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;">Posted by </span></span><span class="fn"><span style="color: #999999; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif"; font-size: 9.5pt; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;">Acher</span></span><span class="post-author"><span style="color: #999999; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif"; font-size: 9.5pt; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"> </span></span><span class="post-timestamp"><span style="color: #999999; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif"; font-size: 9.5pt; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;">at </span></span><a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/05/morality-whats-hangup.html" title="permanent link"><span style="font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif"; font-size: 9.5pt; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;">8:38 PM</span></a><span class="post-timestamp"><span style="color: #999999; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif"; font-size: 9.5pt; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"> </span></span><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=1035684406490002736&from=pencil" title=""Edit Post" "><span style="display: none; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", "sans-serif"; font-size: 9.5pt; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; mso-hide: all; mso-no-proof: yes; text-transform: uppercase;"><shapetype coordsize="21600,21600" filled="f" id="_x0000_t75" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" stroked="f"><stroke joinstyle="miter"></stroke><formulas><f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"></f><f eqn="sum @0 1 0"></f><f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"></f><f eqn="prod @2 1 2"></f><f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"></f><f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"></f><f eqn="sum @0 0 1"></f><f eqn="prod @6 1 2"></f><f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"></f><f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"></f><f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"></f><f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"></f></formulas><path gradientshapeok="t" o:connecttype="rect" o:extrusionok="f"></path><lock aspectratio="t" v:ext="edit"></lock></shapetype><shape alt="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/icon18_edit_allbkg.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=1035684406490002736&from=pencil" id="Picture_x0020_1" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1048" style="height: 13.5pt; 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letter-spacing: 2.4pt; text-transform: uppercase;">12 comments: </span></b><b><span style="color: #999999; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; font-size: 12pt; letter-spacing: 2.4pt; text-transform: uppercase;"></span></b></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="" name="c6504391231075294269"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/09944061608450443441"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjHWna0yKQFM6RlRVuK28HVD1KqSHJnLKx0YR8DOO2-FLspNmlDeidCIm01Q7BHqfZUGvCG27wLFTkPrNEI2CUcppiJB75ExfdtLrL6UsiVCT38i3jm4B6byXgpopr6UYkJ7WaqEPL3waA/s45/IMG_4834_2.JPG" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/09944061608450443441" id="Picture_x0020_2" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1047" style="height: 26.25pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 26.25pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="IMG_4834_2" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image002.jpg"></imagedata></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/09944061608450443441"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"><span style="color: #5588aa;">eitz hadaas</span></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"> said... </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 0in 0in 9pt 0.5in;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";">Acher, you said the answer yourself. By pointing out the relativism of morality, one gets to point to the absurdity of an eternal code of morals written in a book thousands of years ago.<br />
<br />
Now, if the document is vague than it might stand a chance (like, say, the constitution), however critics like to point to the particulars of biblical conduct to prove, not that it is wrong about it's morals but, wrong as a choice of time defying guide book to ethics. Because ethics change, at least the particulars do. It's not to criticize the book, it's to criticize people's use of it. <br />
<br />
You said it, Acher, morals are relative; and so are texts. </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 16.8pt; margin: 0in 0in 24pt 0.5in;"><a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/05/morality-whats-hangup.html?showComment=1242870079299#c6504391231075294269" title="comment permalink"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><span style="color: #5588aa;">May 20, 2009 9:41 PM </span></span></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=6504391231075294269" title=""Delete Comment" "><span style="display: none; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; mso-hide: all; mso-no-proof: yes; text-transform: uppercase;"><shape alt="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=6504391231075294269" id="Picture_x0020_3" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1046" style="height: 9.75pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 9.75pt;" title=""Delete Comment"" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="icon_delete13" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="" name="c2938369367540032902"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/18032300763846528500"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/18032300763846528500" id="Picture_x0020_4" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1045" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="b16-rounded" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image005.gif"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/18032300763846528500"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"><span style="color: #5588aa;">lostgod</span></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"> said... </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 0in 0in 9pt 0.5in;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";">>I want to know why people who have otherwise renounced religion and the belief that life has meaning (or at least recognize that there is no convincing reason to think it has one), continue to have this hangup when it comes to morality.<br />
<br />
I think that for me a distinction needs to be made. There is a difference between saying 'life has no meaning,' to 'life has no meaning <i>outside of itself</i>.' I think that if you believe that there is an intrinsic value to being alive, separate from any imaginary rewards, then there can be definitive shades of morality. (just to be clear, I'm talking about people who are born, not making an anti-choice argument) </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 16.8pt; margin: 0in 0in 24pt 0.5in;"><a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/05/morality-whats-hangup.html?showComment=1242871848389#c2938369367540032902" title="comment permalink"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><span style="color: #5588aa;">May 20, 2009 10:10 PM </span></span></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=2938369367540032902" title=""Delete Comment" "><span style="display: none; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; mso-hide: all; mso-no-proof: yes; text-transform: uppercase;"><shape alt="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=2938369367540032902" id="Picture_x0020_5" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1044" style="height: 9.75pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 9.75pt;" title=""Delete Comment"" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="icon_delete13" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="" name="c6605270844080414797"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/07447700678656460299"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_V1HYhMQgvXA/SZdNDrHnegI/AAAAAAAAANI/2luDbI4dz80/S45/shtreimel1.jpg" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/07447700678656460299" id="Picture_x0020_6" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1043" style="height: 26.25pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 26.25pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="shtreimel1" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image006.jpg"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/07447700678656460299"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"><span style="color: #5588aa;">Shtreimel</span></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"> said... </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 0in 0in 9pt 0.5in;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";">Acher, <br />
EH, said it best, although, frankly, even the constitution didn't have it totally right by our standards – which is the reason it is amended from time to time. And that is the argument. <br />
<br />
(If you're already apologizing after a few weeks I cannot imagine how little you're gonna write in a year! Keep it up man.) </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 16.8pt; margin: 0in 0in 24pt 0.5in;"><a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/05/morality-whats-hangup.html?showComment=1242872821345#c6605270844080414797" title="comment permalink"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><span style="color: #5588aa;">May 20, 2009 10:27 PM </span></span></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=6605270844080414797" title=""Delete Comment" "><span style="display: none; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; mso-hide: all; mso-no-proof: yes; text-transform: uppercase;"><shape alt="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=6605270844080414797" id="Picture_x0020_7" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1042" style="height: 9.75pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 9.75pt;" title=""Delete Comment"" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="icon_delete13" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="" name="c3828148085998205977"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12944580668112674433"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhm9cBfVTitjyVsJifhRPgvgWtkDpynHAqDQj5u9tMs6j5ExDgYadP0I2HyGSF-NW3s4soY4X3LBwMof_NERJmX0wbEIpJ4I-pE7D9Q7gt9pUWRz1Qm_FjXiSXVmfTGPH1G_5SPGQ-UgQ/s45/democritus_1628_Brugghen.jpg" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12944580668112674433" id="Picture_x0020_8" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1041" style="height: 26.25pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 26.25pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="democritus_1628_Brugghen" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image008.jpg"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12944580668112674433"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"><span style="color: #5588aa;">Acher</span></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"> said... </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 0in 0in 9pt 0.5in;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";">I'm not sure I made myself clear enough. The problem is not criticism of using the Torah as a modern code of ethics. It's arguments that try to show that it's wrong and can't be divine because of its incompatibility with our standards. That's what rubs me the wrong way. If God said do it's right by definition. The question is: did he say it or not. Not if you like it, because there is no standard by which to judge God. <br />
<br />
Lostgod,<br />
<br />
Even admitting to your proposition that being alive is something worth striving for in it of itself, that still would not be a basis enough o judge God's rules. This is even if we allow for the possibility that God may be evil, but since he claims not to be, I think the best bet is to trust his omniscience. That being said, I don't think there is an 'intrinsic' value to being alive. It's just an evolutionary impulse necessary for survival. In fact, I challenge anyone to put forth a convincing argument for <b>any</b> intrinsic value whatsoever. That's really the essence of my post. These mythical things don't exist for people like us (that's what I think should follow logically given other positions espoused). </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 16.8pt; margin: 0in 0in 24pt 0.5in;"><a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/05/morality-whats-hangup.html?showComment=1242876322117#c3828148085998205977" title="comment permalink"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><span style="color: #5588aa;">May 20, 2009 11:25 PM </span></span></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=3828148085998205977" title=""Delete Comment" "><span style="display: none; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; mso-hide: all; mso-no-proof: yes; text-transform: uppercase;"><shape alt="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=3828148085998205977" id="Picture_x0020_9" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1040" style="height: 9.75pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 9.75pt;" title=""Delete Comment"" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="icon_delete13" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="" name="c6911587631379107255"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiG0oxZZS_bqRM7-kgvZRKHbxwknIa7SOQpbl2VNgfCKJ8ZXcCRi2gX3OsO8Q9oPDZXMag5N0m9ibqJMyDr30DwPU6vA8kjzFggUhX_0BMkdv1YtaxJKsJRv15OkeuGm2H3DRn5l7Aik-A/s45/ortho.jpg" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384" id="Picture_x0020_10" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1039" style="height: 26.25pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 26.25pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="ortho" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image010.jpg"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"><span style="color: #5588aa;">Orthoprax</span></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"> said... </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 0in 0in 9pt 0.5in;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";">Acher,<br />
<br />
"I assume the reader recognizes that barring divine instruction, morals are inherently subjective."<br />
<br />
I find such a statement to be deeply flawed. Morals are made in response to human nature and the human condition - objective facts. People may disagree on methods and mechanisms but the goals are always to do what is in the best interests of man. And unless you believe all interests are equally rational and valid, i.e. to eat an apple is as valid a choice as is swallowing a gallon on bleach, then you must recognize a hierarchy of objectively correct decisions: that some acts, some moral codes, make more sense than others. The value of human life makes sense whereas it's non-value is self-defeating.<br />
<br />
With that recognition and the assumed goal that rules be made to lead to the best interests of man then it becomes potentially able to be studied scientifically - objectively. Does a given moral in a given society lead to the wellbeing of man in that society? By the mere process of evolution of human civilization, we have already learned how a great deal of once-idealized moral behavior is in fact counterproductive.<br />
<br />
<br />
With that said, I agree with your assessment that people who believe in moral relativity haven't a logical leg to stand on to criticize any immoral behavior or ethical code. </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 16.8pt; margin: 0in 0in 24pt 0.5in;"><a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/05/morality-whats-hangup.html?showComment=1242891414718#c6911587631379107255" title="comment permalink"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><span style="color: #5588aa;">May 21, 2009 3:36 AM </span></span></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=6911587631379107255" title=""Delete Comment" "><span style="display: none; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; mso-hide: all; mso-no-proof: yes; text-transform: uppercase;"><shape alt="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=6911587631379107255" id="Picture_x0020_11" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1038" style="height: 9.75pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 9.75pt;" title=""Delete Comment"" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="icon_delete13" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="" name="c6990912726195281951"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15752938979399977997"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15752938979399977997" id="Picture_x0020_12" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1037" style="height: 12pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 12pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="b16-rounded" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image005.gif"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15752938979399977997"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"><span style="color: #5588aa;">David</span></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"> said... </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 0in 0in 9pt 0.5in;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";">I'm with Orthoprax. I don't think morality is completely subjective-- it's hard to imagine a successful society that didn't have some rules about not stealing and murdering... </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 16.8pt; margin: 0in 0in 24pt 0.5in;"><a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/05/morality-whats-hangup.html?showComment=1242909888571#c6990912726195281951" title="comment permalink"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><span style="color: #5588aa;">May 21, 2009 8:44 AM </span></span></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=6990912726195281951" title=""Delete Comment" "><span style="display: none; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; mso-hide: all; mso-no-proof: yes; text-transform: uppercase;"><shape alt="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=6990912726195281951" id="Picture_x0020_13" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1036" style="height: 9.75pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 9.75pt;" title=""Delete Comment"" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="icon_delete13" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="" name="c4028714496002664908"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12861222390091673835"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEimdHPAO40DB7wOgiaekLGxb-RbdB8z354b-HYv18yvwHXChc5GsUMjppw2cmEO3rmJt961ZYRoturOpm4mwG21RziH1SPncVD32GRdxlJG1v1yOPpvB6CjPXgxh4_KmTZfqfjYgegG25Y/s45/mask.jpg" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12861222390091673835" id="Picture_x0020_14" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1035" style="height: 26.25pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 26.25pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="mask" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image012.jpg"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12861222390091673835"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"><span style="color: #5588aa;">Baal Habos</span></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"> said... </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 0in 0in 9pt 0.5in;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";">> it's hard to imagine a successful society that didn't have some rules about not stealing and murdering...<br />
<br />
Exactly. So from an evolutionary perspective, societies that develop "healthy" morals will survive.<br />
<br />
Acher, I'm with you. </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 16.8pt; margin: 0in 0in 24pt 0.5in;"><a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/05/morality-whats-hangup.html?showComment=1242958274884#c4028714496002664908" title="comment permalink"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><span style="color: #5588aa;">May 21, 2009 10:11 PM </span></span></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=4028714496002664908" title=""Delete Comment" "><span style="display: none; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; mso-hide: all; mso-no-proof: yes; text-transform: uppercase;"><shape alt="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=4028714496002664908" id="Picture_x0020_15" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1034" style="height: 9.75pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 9.75pt;" title=""Delete Comment"" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="icon_delete13" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="" name="c2243985551882463477"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12944580668112674433"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhm9cBfVTitjyVsJifhRPgvgWtkDpynHAqDQj5u9tMs6j5ExDgYadP0I2HyGSF-NW3s4soY4X3LBwMof_NERJmX0wbEIpJ4I-pE7D9Q7gt9pUWRz1Qm_FjXiSXVmfTGPH1G_5SPGQ-UgQ/s45/democritus_1628_Brugghen.jpg" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12944580668112674433" id="Picture_x0020_16" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1033" style="height: 26.25pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 26.25pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="democritus_1628_Brugghen" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image008.jpg"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12944580668112674433"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"><span style="color: #5588aa;">Acher</span></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"> said... </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 0in 0in 9pt 0.5in;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";">Orthoprax,<br />
<br />
Again sorry for the delayed response. <br />
<br />
By morals I refer to any constraints set by society and/or some authority on man's natural selfish impulses. To simply follow one's instinct is not a matter of deliberation, morals as a set of rules are. <br />
Having said that, I agree that one may study one set of rules as opposed to another, and judging by given criteria, conclude that one set of morals achieves their goal better than others. But this should still have no bearing on the divinity of a given set of morals. Even if we were to assume as a matter of fact that modern morals are more constructive for man's well being than the Torah's morals, this does not in any way preclude the Torah's divinity. God could have a rather different criterion of what's good or bad for man, which is not compatible with our understanding. I say this because even if you're right in claiming that some morals can be <b>objectively</b> superior to others, you're using man's well being only in a limited sense. God may be privy to more information than we are. Therefore this is not a case of a supposed divine dictum contradicting reality.<br />
<br />
The previous paragraph assumes that some goals are intrinsically superior to others, and even though, God may have a rather different conception of the goals, because of his omniscience. I do again challenge anyone to build a convincing case for <b>any</b> and I mean any goal or value which is intrinsically better than any other. This is really the crux of the matter for me. I hope to elaborate on this in a coming post. </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 16.8pt; margin: 0in 0in 24pt 0.5in;"><a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/05/morality-whats-hangup.html?showComment=1243224638583#c2243985551882463477" title="comment permalink"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><span style="color: #5588aa;">May 25, 2009 12:10 AM </span></span></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=2243985551882463477" title=""Delete Comment" "><span style="display: none; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; mso-hide: all; mso-no-proof: yes; text-transform: uppercase;"><shape alt="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=2243985551882463477" id="Picture_x0020_17" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1032" style="height: 9.75pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 9.75pt;" title=""Delete Comment"" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="icon_delete13" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="" name="c3015004804355178725"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiG0oxZZS_bqRM7-kgvZRKHbxwknIa7SOQpbl2VNgfCKJ8ZXcCRi2gX3OsO8Q9oPDZXMag5N0m9ibqJMyDr30DwPU6vA8kjzFggUhX_0BMkdv1YtaxJKsJRv15OkeuGm2H3DRn5l7Aik-A/s45/ortho.jpg" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384" id="Picture_x0020_18" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1031" style="height: 26.25pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 26.25pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="ortho" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image010.jpg"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"><span style="color: #5588aa;">Orthoprax</span></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"> said... </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 0in 0in 9pt 0.5in;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";">Acher,<br />
<br />
"I say this because even if you're right in claiming that some morals can be objectively superior to others, you're using man's well being only in a limited sense. God may be privy to more information than we are. Therefore this is not a case of a supposed divine dictum contradicting reality."<br />
<br />
Sure, if one wants to rely on faith-based assumptions about the human good then one can end up in all sorts of crazy places.<br />
<br />
However, if we are operating by methods of reason then we can only use man's wellbeing in ways we understand or reasonably extrapolate. Indeed, I'm not even setting specific ideals for what is ultimately best for man - I'm setting the lowest bars showing what is BAD for man. Those are the lines which we ought not cross. The lowest bars are those which we are already quite familiar with as a species.<br />
<br />
"I do again challenge anyone to build a convincing case for any and I mean any goal or value which is intrinsically better than any other. This is really the crux of the matter for me."<br />
<br />
Human good is the axiom of moral values. As an axiom it is not demonstrable or provable, especially not across the is-ought chasm. And as an axiom it is as self-evidently true as any other axiom of fact understood through human perception.<br />
<br />
Now, could our models of human good be mistaken in some way - sure, even Euclidean geometry has been found to not hold accurate in all situations - but it's an excellent starting point, and has been demonstrably successful.<br />
<br />
Since we all live together and therefore require a guide on behavior, how do you suggest we organize ourselves if not based on reason and the virtual unanimity of certain perceived moral goals? </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 16.8pt; margin: 0in 0in 24pt 0.5in;"><a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/05/morality-whats-hangup.html?showComment=1243340004043#c3015004804355178725" title="comment permalink"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><span style="color: #5588aa;">May 26, 2009 8:13 AM </span></span></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=3015004804355178725" title=""Delete Comment" "><span style="display: none; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; mso-hide: all; mso-no-proof: yes; text-transform: uppercase;"><shape alt="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=3015004804355178725" id="Picture_x0020_19" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1030" style="height: 9.75pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 9.75pt;" title=""Delete Comment"" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="icon_delete13" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="" name="c6850187909033567472"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12944580668112674433"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhm9cBfVTitjyVsJifhRPgvgWtkDpynHAqDQj5u9tMs6j5ExDgYadP0I2HyGSF-NW3s4soY4X3LBwMof_NERJmX0wbEIpJ4I-pE7D9Q7gt9pUWRz1Qm_FjXiSXVmfTGPH1G_5SPGQ-UgQ/s45/democritus_1628_Brugghen.jpg" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12944580668112674433" id="Picture_x0020_20" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1029" style="height: 26.25pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 26.25pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="democritus_1628_Brugghen" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image008.jpg"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12944580668112674433"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"><span style="color: #5588aa;">Acher</span></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"> said... </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 0in 0in 9pt 0.5in;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";">Orthoprax,<br />
<br />
Let's go back and start from the beginning. My problem initially is with those who try to dispute the Torah's divinity with the following: The Torah can't be divine because its moral standards go against our conceptions of morality, which are based on what we perceive to be man's well being. The problem I raised was one of logic, not of value judgments. Specifically what I'm saying is the following: those who pose this argument against the Torah, do not presuppose that there is no God, or that he doesn't communicate with man. If they would, this argument would be meaningless, as they are already precluding a divinely inspired document a priori. What the argument claims is that God couldn't have said something that is wrong. To which I'm saying, this is a fallacious argument because if you admit God's existence and his involvement in human affairs, you must admit that God may be privy to more information about what's good for you than you are. If a supposedly divine document contradicts an observed fact, one would be correct in using this as an argument against its divinity. A square has four sides whether God looks at it or man. But concerning value judgments, such as what's "good" for man, someone who does not preclude God's involvement in human affairs cannot disregard God's judgment in the matter.<br />
<br />
As to what I suggest we do about organizing ourselves, and around what we should build our values if not around reason, I don't necessarily disagree. But it has nothing to do with the issue raised in the post. </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 16.8pt; margin: 0in 0in 24pt 0.5in;"><a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/05/morality-whats-hangup.html?showComment=1243737944454#c6850187909033567472" title="comment permalink"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><span style="color: #5588aa;">May 30, 2009 10:45 PM </span></span></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=6850187909033567472" title=""Delete Comment" "><span style="display: none; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; mso-hide: all; mso-no-proof: yes; text-transform: uppercase;"><shape alt="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=6850187909033567472" id="Picture_x0020_21" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1028" style="height: 9.75pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 9.75pt;" title=""Delete Comment"" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="icon_delete13" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="" name="c5922849414202904770"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiG0oxZZS_bqRM7-kgvZRKHbxwknIa7SOQpbl2VNgfCKJ8ZXcCRi2gX3OsO8Q9oPDZXMag5N0m9ibqJMyDr30DwPU6vA8kjzFggUhX_0BMkdv1YtaxJKsJRv15OkeuGm2H3DRn5l7Aik-A/s45/ortho.jpg" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384" id="Picture_x0020_22" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1027" style="height: 26.25pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 26.25pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="ortho" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image010.jpg"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"><span style="color: #5588aa;">Orthoprax</span></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"> said... </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 0in 0in 9pt 0.5in;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";">Acher,<br />
<br />
As I said in my first response, I agree with your understanding of the incoherence of those who criticize the Torah an moral grounds.<br />
<br />
What I disagreed with in your post was when you said that "barring divine instruction, morals are inherently subjective." </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 16.8pt; margin: 0in 0in 24pt 0.5in;"><a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/05/morality-whats-hangup.html?showComment=1243907333204#c5922849414202904770" title="comment permalink"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><span style="color: #5588aa;">June 1, 2009 9:48 PM </span></span></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=5922849414202904770" title=""Delete Comment" "><span style="display: none; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; mso-hide: all; mso-no-proof: yes; text-transform: uppercase;"><shape alt="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=5746876489244250983&postID=5922849414202904770" id="Picture_x0020_23" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1026" style="height: 9.75pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 9.75pt;" title=""Delete Comment"" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="icon_delete13" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.gif"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="" name="c184757786702699091"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12944580668112674433"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; mso-no-proof: yes;"><shape alt="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhm9cBfVTitjyVsJifhRPgvgWtkDpynHAqDQj5u9tMs6j5ExDgYadP0I2HyGSF-NW3s4soY4X3LBwMof_NERJmX0wbEIpJ4I-pE7D9Q7gt9pUWRz1Qm_FjXiSXVmfTGPH1G_5SPGQ-UgQ/s45/democritus_1628_Brugghen.jpg" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12944580668112674433" id="Picture_x0020_24" o:button="t" o:spid="_x0000_i1025" style="height: 26.25pt; mso-wrap-style: square; visibility: visible; width: 26.25pt;" type="#_x0000_t75"><span style="color: #5588aa;"><fill o:detectmouseclick="t"></fill><imagedata o:title="democritus_1628_Brugghen" src="file:///C:\Users\Shragy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image008.jpg"></imagedata></span></shape></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 6pt 0in;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/12944580668112674433"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"><span style="color: #5588aa;">Acher</span></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";"> said... </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 19.2pt; margin: 0in 0in 9pt 0.5in;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia", "serif";">Orthoprax,<br />
<br />
I'm Glad we cleared that up.<br />
As to the inherent subjectivity of morals, I think that it follows by your own reasoning. Your criterion for the 'right' morals is whether they enhance man's wellbeing. You admit though that this is an axiom, something that can't be proven. Extending this to its logical conclusion, it's a value judgment, whether man's wellbeing is the 'correct/right' thing by which we may judge something else. 2 + 2 being 4 is not a matter of judgment, it's a fact, the numbers are just different ways to express the same thing. Same thing with any other observed phenomenon, the words used is just the agreed upon language expressing the given observation. Any statement with ought in it, is inherently subjective, unless we are dealing with divine instruction. And even then, maybe. </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 16.8pt; margin: 0in 0in 24pt 0.5in;"><a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/05/morality-whats-hangup.html?showComment=1243963244530#c184757786702699091" title="comment permalink"><span style="font-family: "Georgia", "serif"; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><span style="color: #5588aa;">June 2, 2009 1:20 PM </span></span></a></div>G*3http://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6333352338723538012.post-62632150297494024652011-10-05T09:19:00.000-07:002011-10-05T09:19:51.720-07:00Mad LibsOriginally posted on Baal Habos<br />
9/23/2009<br />
<a href="http://baalhabos.blogspot.com/">Link</a><br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
Excerpt from <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Under-Banner-Heaven-Violent-ebook/dp/B000FC1R2S/ref=dp_kinw_strp_1">Under the Banner of <strike>Shamayim </strike>Heaven </a>about Skeptic Mormons.<br />
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Just replace Deloy with Moshe, Colorado City with Boro Park, etc. and see yourself in the mirror.<br />
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From a tranquil city park at the edge of Colorado City, the sheer cliffs of Canaan Mountains erupt heavenward without preamble... "My brother David and I used to sneak up here every chance we got when we were kids", says Deloy Bateman....<br />
Deloy is perched at the edge of this mountaintop, staring down at the town where he was born and raised. It's the end of July and the temperature is 104 in the shade. Deloy- who seems oblivious to the withering heat even though he is wearing long polyester pants, a long sleeved shirt, and the religion's trademark long underwear-is an apostate from the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christs of Latter Day Saints and has no respect for it's new prophet, Warren Jeffs, but he still resides in this xenophobic community, stuck in the middle of town, and doubts that he'll ever live very far away..... Unlike most who have rejected the teachings of the FLDS church... Deloy has become an atheist.<br />
<br />
It hasn't been an easy transformation. "my whole life, I've had this need to believe in something", he says. "I've wanted answers to why we were put here, just like everybody else. The religion provided these answers.... This religion is in my blood.<br />
<br />
"even though I don't believe anymore, I'm still wearing the garment-the long sacred underwear. I try not to wear it, but I just can't seem to leave it off, even on hot summer days like this....<br />
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In any case, it wasn't the culture's sexual customs or its lifestyle constraints that finally induced Deloy to apostatize. Rather, he says, "It just got to be where I could no longer ignore that the religion is a lie...<br />
<br />
Although Deloy says that he was "extremely religious" throughout his youth, he also had a probing curious mind. "Even as a young boy", he says, "I remember wondering about contradictions between what the religion taught and scientific truth. But Uncle Roy told us that the way to handle that was to avoid asking certain kinds of questions. So I trained myself to ignore the contradictions. I got good at not letting myself think about them." <br />
posted by Baal Habos @ 9/23/2009 <br />
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bankman <br />
i never had a problem taking off my uncomfortable and silly tzitzit. <br />
Wednesday, September 23, 2009, 2:05:24 PM<br />
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Baal Habos <br />
> i never had a problem taking off my uncomfortable and silly tzitzit. <br />
<br />
This is a don't ask don't tell blog! <br />
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Rabban Gamliel <br />
Baal you say you are more of a skeptic now. While I do not know what fully motivated you into skepticism I do know that you eventually swallowed your skepticism for the sake of conformity and accepted the JEDP hypothesis as well as Evolution and do not wish to be wrong about your skepticism or more accurately your alternate belief system. If you are more skeptical you will examine each case on its own merits. <br />
<br />
Also strictly speaking science is not self-correcting. It is scientists who when open to correction will be. There are no guarantees. They are not preprogramed robots. They deserve praise for their accomplishments. <br />
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Since being away from the skeptic blog world I have seen the real world. In the artificial bubble of the skeptic blog world arguments make sense depending on who is dominating enough. Without anyone in the real world to bounce off your ideas to make sure they're not crap you can appear to make sense to others with arguments that are nonsense to regular skeptics let alone believers. The overthrow of that TRex theory proceeded along lines that make no real sense according to your worldview. A well accepted theory should have according to you been proof enough. This was no minor TRex theory. Anyway Gmar Tov. <br />
Maybe I will reply back and forth wth you and maybe not. <br />
Good wishes from a tired but happy Rabban Gamliel I can't believe I am even writing. Ok click publish now before I change my mind. <br />
Friday, September 25, 2009, 5:56:00 PM<br />
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Baal Habos <br />
RG! Welcome back, to what will probably be my last post for many months; except for my goodbye post, of course. You're right, there really is no sense in these debates. Have a Gmar Chasima Tova!<br />
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Bruce <br />
Hi guys. There's two parts to any worldview: explaining your affirmative beliefs and explaining your negative beliefs. <br />
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I think the skeptical debates are inherently more interesting, especially for those in the Orthodox world. But what about the other half. What do you affirmatively believe about Judaism. What practices do you practice, and why? How is this meaningful to you? <br />
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XGH seems to have partially shifted in this direction and seems happier. He has not deleted his blog in months. I have tried to strike a balance between the two. Little Foxling seemed to have focused exclusively on the negative side and got burned out. <br />
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Maybe try blogging this way for a while and see if it works. (And Sukkot is a good place to start.) <br />
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Shabbat shalom, v gmar tov. <br />
Friday, September 25, 2009, 6:27:38 PM<br />
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Baal Habos <br />
>What do you affirmatively believe about Judaism. What practices do you practice, and why? How is this meaningful to you? <br />
<br />
Very little. I mean there are good messages in there, but when I'm stuck in a Chareidi-like community, there is no meaning in any of it. It's truduging off to Shul numerous times (a day?), hearing ever increasing Chareidi rhetoric. Bah. <br />
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Gmar Tov, though. <br />
Saturday, September 26, 2009, 8:41:49 PM<br />
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Rabban Gamliel <br />
"RG! Welcome back, to what will probably be my last post for many months; except for my goodbye post, of course. You're right, there really is no sense in these debates. Have a Gmar Chasima Tova! <br />
Baal Habos" <br />
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It's a pleasure exchanging a few words with you! Gmar Chasima Tova! <br />
Saturday, September 26, 2009, 10:57:23 PM<br />
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B. Spinoza <br />
how nice to see an exchange of a few pleasant words. <br />
Sunday, September 27, 2009, 8:05:10 AM<br />
– Like – ReplyG*3http://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6333352338723538012.post-60157484656012764662011-10-02T12:25:00.001-07:002011-10-02T12:25:56.063-07:00Chumash Shiur: BehaloschaOriginally posted on Divrei Acher<br />
Tuesday, June 16, 2009<br />
<a href="http://acherhakoton.blogspot.com/2009/06/chumash-shiur-behaloscha.html">Link</a><br />
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Over Shabbos, the following Stirah, discussed by all the Meforshim, bothered me very much. In Parshas Bamidbor and Noss0, God tells Moshe to count the Leviim from age thirty to fifty in order to serve in the Mishkan:<br />
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נָשֹׂא, אֶת-רֹאשׁ בְּנֵי קְהָת, מִתּוֹךְ, בְּנֵי לֵוִי--לְמִשְׁפְּחֹתָם, לְבֵית אֲבֹתָם.<br />
מִבֶּן שְׁלֹשִׁים שָׁנָה וָמַעְלָה, וְעַד בֶּן-חֲמִשִּׁים שָׁנָה--כָּל-בָּא, לַצָּבָא, לַעֲשׂוֹת מְלָאכָה, בְּאֹהֶל מוֹעֵד.<br />
'Take the sum of the sons of Kohath from among the sons of Levi, by their families, by their fathers' houses, from thirty years old and upward even until fifty years old, all that enter upon the service, to do work in the tent of meeting. (Numbers 4:2-3).<br />
נָשֹׂא, אֶת-רֹאשׁ בְּנֵי גֵרְשׁוֹן--גַּם-הֵם: לְבֵית אֲבֹתָם, לְמִשְׁפְּחֹתָם.<br />
מִבֶּן שְׁלֹשִׁים שָׁנָה וָמַעְלָה, עַד בֶּן-חֲמִשִּׁים שָׁנָה--תִּפְקֹד אוֹתָם: כָּל-הַבָּא לִצְבֹא צָבָא, לַעֲבֹד עֲבֹדָה בְּאֹהֶל מוֹעֵד.<br />
'Take the sum of the sons of Gershon also, by their fathers' houses, by their families; from thirty years old and upward until fifty years old shalt thou number them: all that enter in to wait upon the service, to do service in the tent of meeting.(ibid 22-23).<br />
בְּנֵי, מְרָרִי--לְמִשְׁפְּחֹתָם לְבֵית-אֲבֹתָם, תִּפְקֹד אֹתָם.<br />
מִבֶּן שְׁלֹשִׁים שָׁנָה וָמַעְלָה, וְעַד בֶּן-חֲמִשִּׁים שָׁנָה--תִּפְקְדֵם: כָּל-הַבָּא, לַצָּבָא, לַעֲבֹד, אֶת-עֲבֹדַת אֹהֶל מוֹעֵד.<br />
As for the sons of Merari, thou shalt number them by their families, by their fathers' houses; from thirty years old and upward even unto fifty years old shalt thou number them, every one that entereth upon the service, to do the work of the tent of meeting.(ibid 29-30).<br />
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While in Parshas Behaloscha it says:<br />
זֹאת, אֲשֶׁר לַלְוִיִּם: מִבֶּן חָמֵשׁ וְעֶשְׂרִים שָׁנָה, וָמַעְלָה, יָבוֹא לִצְבֹא צָבָא, בַּעֲבֹדַת אֹהֶל מוֹעֵד.<br />
וּמִבֶּן חֲמִשִּׁים שָׁנָה, יָשׁוּב מִצְּבָא הָעֲבֹדָה; וְלֹא יַעֲבֹד, עוֹד.<br />
'This is that which pertaineth unto the Levites: from twenty and five years old and upward they shall go in to perform the service in the work of the tent of meeting; and from the age of fifty years they shall return from the service of the work, and shall serve no more;(ibid 8:24-25).<br />
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The Meforshim have various explanations for this discrepancy. First there is RSH"I who as usual has a somewhat Midrashic explanation (taken from the Gemarah) that the Levi would come to learn his trade at the age ot twenty five for five years, at which point he would be ready to start at the prescribed age of thirty. Nu, enough said.<br />
The Ibn Ezra writes that the Posuk in which the prescribed age is thirty doesn't contradict the latter Posuk because at the age of thirty the Levi would start carrying the Mishkan while at the age of twenty five he only serviced it. To which the RMB"N rightfully replies that it's incorrect because in 4:23 it says כָּל-הַבָּא לִצְבֹא צָבָא, לַעֲבֹד עֲבֹדָה בְּאֹהֶל מוֹעֵד<br />
and in the next Posuk: זֹאת עֲבֹדַת, מִשְׁפְּחֹת הַגֵּרְשֻׁנִּי--לַעֲבֹד, וּלְמַשָּׂא<br />
so this doesn't work obviously.<br />
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The RMB"N himself offers the following explanation: Moshe was commanded to count the Leviim only from age thirty, at which point they were to be pressed into service. At age twenty five though, a Levi was able to come forth and serve of his own volition, but could not have an official post as overseer and so on. The reason being that a decadal birthday is known to a man's family and friends, while other birthdays not so much. The thirtieth birthday was thus a convenient age for counting. The RMB"N notes that in another instance, Chronicles i 23:3, the Leviim were also counted at age thirty.<br />
I think this is the best Terutz so far, but I think it's lacking. First, the phraseology is the same in all the Psukim, indicating that the status and terms of service are the same. Second, in the Psukim where they are counted at thirty, it says: כָּל-בָּא, לַצָּבָא, or כָּל-הַבָּא לִצְבֹא צָבָא, which means that those counted included all that were to serve in the Mishkan. Another problem is obviously that the RMB"Ns differentiation between the two ages has nothing to support it from the text, other than the fact that here the Leviim are counted and here not, which may have many reasons other than his.<br />
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The usual real Terutz in such cases doesn't work here, because all of these Psukim are attributed to the same source, which all have the unmistakable imprint of P. So what to do? Did the author forget in chapter eight what he wrote in chapter 4. It's not only the age that's different, it seems that in 8, the author seems oblivious to the fact that the Leviim were just counted extensively for this purpose. Is there an obvious real Terutz I didn't grasp. Or maybe, is one of those Farkvetchte Terutzim the real thing? Did the author actually intend to have his words dissected in a semi-code manner? <br />
POSTED BY ACHER AT 2:09 PM <br />
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6 COMMENTS: <br />
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FriedFalafel said... <br />
Just found your blog via your comment at XGH and I really enjoy what you've done so far.<br />
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I think the thing to remember is that though DH can differentiate between general strains (P, JE, D) which is quite remarkable statistically (see LittleFoxling's breakdown), it can't differentiate between substrains within those strains. What were the original sources? How were they edited in each stage? We can't possibly know. Theories abound, and there isn't enough evidence for statistically significant theories to prevail. Clearly though, even the P stories have different (perhaps only slightly different) sources, including the main codes of law sections which obviously contradict each other.<br />
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So basically, acknowledge the contradiction. It doesn't help the DH, but it does help ascertain the general theory of man-made authorship. Kvetching is silly. Is it possible there was some kind of kvetch in actuality which the original sources knew about (Whatever reality the description in Torah was referring to)? Maybe, but that's already a slim chance. The chance that any of the commentaries picked up on it reading into the minimal evidence that exists is even more minuscule. <br />
JUNE 19, 2009 7:34 AM <br />
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Acher said... <br />
Thanks for stopping by.<br />
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I don't disagree with the general premise of the documentary hypothesis. Its general conclusions are as self evident as anything. The Torah is a composite of multiple human authorship. In this case though, we have a contradiction between Psukim whose common authorship is very suggestive. It's hard to say that they were written by different authors. The most one can argue is that they were composed by members of the same school in one project, but then why the obvious contradiction, and more so the Psukim in Behaloscha seem oblivious to the previous countings. As much as I don't like Kvetching, I think it's fair to ask: what's the deal? Maybe Kvetching does have some roots in the original text. <br />
JUNE 19, 2009 10:51 AM <br />
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evanstonjew said... <br />
Jacob Milgrom in the JPS volume on Numbers adds a little information:1)The Septugaint reads 25 in 4:23,30. End of problem. 2)Quamran agrees with the rabbis, 25 for training ,30 for service. They read tsava (4:3, 8:24) as army. They held the Levitical ages applied to the entire community. Everyone is drafted at 25, fully enters the military ranks at 30.(1QSa1:12-19;1Qm7:3)<br />
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There is a third variant, age 20 which should also be discussed. (1Chronicles23:21,27;Ezra3:8;2Chron.31:17) <br />
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Baruch Levine in the Anchor Bible volume has no answers. He says passingly there must have been variants of P. <br />
JUNE 20, 2009 10:57 PM <br />
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Acher said... <br />
EJ,<br />
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To finish your thought with the Septuagint, we would have to say that the sons of Kohath were counted from 30, while the rest started at 25, because if I read you correctly, 23,30 doesn't answer 3. So I guess we would have to differentiate between the Kohathim and the rest of the Levies, which isn't problematic, as we find them to have a privileged status otherwise. <br />
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As to Qumran, I don't see it as a reflection of an original intention by the author. The Qumran community could invent Drushim and novel interpretations with the best of our Rabbis, and the only thing it does for this Pshat, is make its origins more ancient, but not necessarily original.<br />
<br />
The Chroniles i 23:27 is interesting because in the same chapter verse 3, it says they were counted at 30. In 27 it actually says:<br />
כִּי בְדִבְרֵי דָוִיד הָאַחֲרוֹנִים, הֵמָּה מִסְפַּר בְּנֵי-לֵוִי, מִבֶּן עֶשְׂרִים שָׁנָה, וּלְמָעְלָה.<br />
possibly implying that in a previous count they were counted at a different age, thereby the author is accounting for the discrepancy with the beginning of the chapter. <br />
<br />
As to the possibility of variants of P, it's very possible in general, especially if we keep in mind that it's a priestly document, which probably increases the possibility that it was drafted by a school rather than by a single author. Here I think it's a bit harder because it seems that the verse in chapter 8 seems completely oblivious to the extensive counting done previously. And even if we presume a school authorship of P, it was definitely consolidated into a single book, or series thereof, before it became a widely accepted document, thereby its redactor need not have faced issues with streamlining the text that the final redactor certainly faced. <br />
JUNE 21, 2009 4:29 AM <br />
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evanstonjew said... <br />
I was wondering if you had any comments on the following critical thesis, (Levine, Milgrom, many others):<br />
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In 1Chronicles5: 29-41 and 6:35-38 the genealogy of Kohath –Amram -Aaron- Eliezer- Pinchas is extended to Zadok.<br />
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Numbers account of the Levites is post exilic and is derivative on Ezekiel 44:9-14, where Leviim are given a subsidiary function. Ezekiel 44:9-14 is a post exilic interpolation to justify the Zadokite seizure of power in the Second Temple. Levitical priests from the provinces were already assigned a secondary status as evidenced by 2Kg23:8-9. Ezekiel 44:9-14 and Numbers stratify even the Jerusalem priesthood into kohanim and leviim. Kohanim are from the Tzadok line, other descendants from Levi are demoted to the secondary status of Leviim; (schleppers and singers in Chronicles AND Psalms, but not P). <br />
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Much of the point of the P contribution to the JE narrative in Numbers (Korach, the kannos of Pinchas, the endless you sit here, you stand there going on and on with repetitions) is to justify this elimination of all competitors other than bnei Pinchas.The other books of chumash do not endorse this stratification. <br />
JUNE 21, 2009 1:51 PM <br />
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Acher said... <br />
An additional source relevant to this is in i Kings 2:26-27 where the story of Abiathar's banishment in favor of Zadok is developed. <br />
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I didn't have a chance yet to look into this in depth, but I do see an emerging pattern here in regards to the "who is a Cohen" question. In Leviticus, the answer seems to be that all sons of Aaron are Cohanim. In Numbers the emphasis seems to be like you're saying on Elazar's prodigy, specifically Pinchas. In Deuteronomy all Levis are included, "Hakohanim Haleviim". Which makes me think that the five book separation as we have it, has roots in their authorship. Not necessarily in relation to each other, but as self standing parts. Usually the sources are regarded as having been compiled separately, Deuteronomy, J and E. With the exception of P, which may have been of a few books, added later by the redactor to J and E. From what you're saying, each of these seems to have been of a separate strata of authorship. All P sources may be from the same school, but not of the same period.<br />
<br />
Getting back to your point, the premise seems to be that this stratification happened in post-exilic times, hence Ezekiel would have been a participant, and Numbers would be based on him rather than the other way around. Seems logical on a precursory glance. I do remember Friedman dealing with this, and without remembering the details, he was very displeased with having the Pentateuch being a derivative of Ezekiel. Would have to check again.<br />
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Hope to get back in more detail. <br />
JUNE 22, 2009 9:06 PMG*3http://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6333352338723538012.post-7644969719389180142011-10-02T12:24:00.000-07:002011-10-02T12:24:33.277-07:00Judaism and IgnoranceOriginally posted on The Skeptitcher Rebbe<br />
Wednesday, November 24, 2010<br />
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From my life experience I have noticed that the main way that Jewish groups, both in the more liberal groups (reform/conservative) and the more fundamentalist ones (othrodoxy), keep the community in following their current beliefs is by keeping their congregants either uninformed about certain concepts and/or misrepresenting them.<br />
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For the Orthodox my experience has been that the leaders of the Jewish frum communities constantly try to avoid exposing their community to secular concepts, mainly when they pose a threat to Jewish beliefs and sometimes even when they don't. When they do present secular concepts that oppose Jewish theology it is almost always presented in such a way that misrepresents them.<br />
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The same goes for the Reform/Conservative leaders as well, but mostly from a different front. The way they keep their congregation Jewish is usually by not informing them of much of what is in the Tanach/Mishnah/Talmud/etc. There is so much ignorance of basic Jewish halachah even. It isn't that they simply disagree with these tenets and halachahs, they are totally ignorant of them. I know of many liberal Jews who don't know what tefillin are? Who don't know when Shavuos is? Who don't know that Jews read from the Torah on days other than Shabbos, let alone that Jews are supposed to pray on days other than Shabbos as well? <br />
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Many times when Jewish subjects are discussed I feel that they truly do misrepresent those subjects. I once heard a reform Rabbi claim in front of a Jewish learning group that if Rambam were alive today that he would support driving to shul on shabbos. Although I don't think that Rambam would be as fanatical or fundamentalist as todays frum yidden, I think it is truly ludicrous to propose that the Rambam would actually drive to shul on shabbos. Why is he saying this? To make Judaism more palatable to Jews who already accept much of secular society. I have a feeling if he talked about what Rambam really felt on many subjects, his group would be turned off by it, and I can't say I blame them, but does he really think that misrepresenting the Rambam is really the proper approach? <br />
Posted by Skeptitcher Rebbe at 9:51 AM <br />
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10 comments: <br />
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no one said... <br />
My feeling is that you are right about the rambam. He had a very definite path in the service of God which is kind of scary. After keeping all of the laws of mishna torah one still would not get into olam haba without being an expert in all of the natural sciences and the metaphysics of Aristotle. He leaves no room for compromise. <br />
November 24, 2010 11:21 AM <br />
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Rabbi Jeffrey Falick said... <br />
It's impossible to know how any historical figure would act if plucked out of time and placed in our context. I sometimes like to think the same things about them. It's a silly comment for the rabbi to have made.<br />
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On the other hand, while most secular Jews who call themselves Reform or Conservative are ignorant about much in Judaism, it's not because many of their rabbis aren't trying. Lately even Reform rabbis have been pushing tefillin and the like.<br />
<br />
My criticism of them is that they hide all of the unappealing aspects of Jewish tradition because they know if people had that knowledge they'd probably become atheists like me!<br />
<br />
www.TheAtheistRabbi.com <br />
November 24, 2010 11:59 AM <br />
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Skeptitcher Rebbe said... <br />
RJF,<br />
<br />
Your last paragraph was mainly what I meant to say. <br />
November 24, 2010 1:35 PM <br />
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Garnel Ironheart said... <br />
Despite your slagging me on another blog, I'll contribute a useful comment here.<br />
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The reason the Reformer mentioned Rambam is because it an established belief in that movement that the Rambam was really a liberal Jew. They point out how the Moreh Nevuchim went against many of the "Orthodox" beliefs of the day and since they believe that being rational means being Reform, since the Rambam was rational he must have also been a Reformer. They explain the Mishneh Torah by saying that it was a concession to the rabbinic leadership of the day to allow him to remain in a leadership role in the community. That he actually meant what he wrote in there isn't part of their belief. <br />
November 27, 2010 7:10 PM <br />
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G*3 said... <br />
> They explain the Mishneh Torah by saying that it was a concession to the rabbinic leadership of the day<br />
<br />
And the Chareidi world explain away the parts of the Rambam they don’t like by saying he wrote it for kiruv.<br />
<br />
For someone who was wildly controversial in his won day, the Rambam has really made it big. Apparently he’s so popular that both ends are groping for ways to sat that he was one of them. We all know the truth, though. If the Rambam was alive today, he’d really be Modern Orthodox. :-) <br />
November 28, 2010 11:53 AM <br />
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Garnel Ironheart said... <br />
G*3, you're not far off. The Rambam was about the intelligent understanding of Judaism and allowing it to interact with the modern world, not so far off from what the Rav and Rav Shimshom Rafael Hirsch preached. <br />
November 28, 2010 2:59 PM <br />
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Anonymous said... <br />
G3- Very funny. Rambam was a very smart guy.<br />
He knew that sometimes he had to be political. As they "sometimes you have to go along to get along". <br />
Garnel- I agree with your comment.<br />
<br />
Dave. <br />
November 29, 2010 6:54 PM <br />
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Questioning Yid said... <br />
Garnel,<br />
<br />
I grew up in a classically Reform Synagogue, where I completed confirmation. Confirmation Class was the first time I had ever heard of Rambam, been given a complete picture of what kosher meant, and learned of the existence of many laws now very basic to me. My Rabbi was quite the mover and shaker in his day, well respected within the movement. And I received no such mesorah from him. He made it very clear that, while the Rambam was indeed a liberal in his own time, that he certainly was and is an Orthodox figure. Yet somehow, he did insist that his 13 Principles of Faith are universally accepted by Judaism in a day when all Reform siddurim carried the line M'chayei haKol. Yay intellectual consistency!<br />
<br />
And sadly, Skeptisher, I have met Reform Rabbis with the same or worse misunderstandings as their congregants. I have even heard them spreading their ignorance on occasion. It appears to be a deeply rooted institutional problem. While I won't be accepted in the Orthodox community, I can never go back to the Reform; it's just too...perhaps "uninformed" is the most polite way I can put it. <br />
December 13, 2010 4:17 PM <br />
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Skeptitcher Rebbe said... <br />
QY,<br />
<br />
I feel the same way about my former conservative upbringing. <br />
December 14, 2010 9:49 AMG*3http://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6333352338723538012.post-9575935244251422542011-10-02T12:23:00.000-07:002011-10-02T12:23:28.570-07:00The Akeidah and MeOriginally posted on David's Harp<br />
MONDAY, JANUARY 16, 2006<br />
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1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did prove Abraham, and said unto him: 'Abraham'; and he said: 'Here am I.' 2 And He said: 'Take now thy son, thine only son, whom thou lovest, even Isaac, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt-offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.' (Genesis 22)<br />
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The story of the Akeidah – Abraham’s task to sacrifice Isaac – occupies a central place in orthodox thought and emblemizes the power and supremacy of faith. This is Abraham’s final test of faith, it is this act of supreme belief and devotion which solidifies God’s pledge to Abraham and the Jewish People:<br />
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15 And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham a second time out of heaven, 16 and said: 'By Myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son, 17 that in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the seashore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; 18 and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast hearkened to My voice.' (Ibid)<br />
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I had always found this story inspiring – and it all made perfect sense to me, both the story itself and all of the many midrashic explorations. Abraham, had not only longed for many years for a son who would succeed him, but had devoted his entire life to renouncing the local pagan worship, especially it’s most odious form – human sacrifice. His triumph is the struggle to overcome his native emotional instincts to fulfill God’s will.<br />
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As we say on Rosh Hashanah: "Master of the Universe! Just as Abraham our father suppressed his compassion for his only son to do Your will with a whole heart, so may Your compassion suppress Your wrath against us, and may Your mercy prevail over Your attributes of strict justice."<br />
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It is difficult, from the orthodox starting point, to gain some independent spiritual perspective on this. This is excerpted from something that I recently wrote:<br />
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“One of the facets of being religious (at least ‘frum’) is the idea that the moral code is completely proscribed by God. “The only free person is he who is immersed in Torah.” (Perek, 6:1). Our job is to free ourselves of the need to make independent moral choices. There is no stronger message than the Akadah. If God commands Avraham to sacrifice his son, his challenge is to suppress his innate sense of morality in favor of the divine decree. If you can do this, you are truly religious. You may be able to achieve happiness and serenity, and a sense of meaning and purpose in your life. The only problem, however, is that you’ve slain your son in the process.<br />
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To put it in less macabre terms (although, it wasn’t me who wrote Bereishis), you have given up your prerogative (and perhaps, ability) to develop your own sense of right and wrong. If the world is fortunate, the dogma to which you subscribe is magnanimous and humanistic. If less fortunate (as history has unfortunately demonstrated) it is prejudiced and brutal. Probably – if the Torah is any indication – it is a mixture of both<br />
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Whether or not there is a God, the one thing that I believe is that we are born with an innate sense of justice and morality. That sense is compromised throughout our lives by the dogma and socialization to which we are born. Our supreme moral challenge is to re-connect with that sense within us all - that inner voice which has been drowned out by dogma, by social stigma and by prejudice. What we arrive at may not be perfect, but it paves the way for those who will come to take the next steps. That is my definition of “Tikun Olam”, and that is what we sacrifice when we choose to remain believers.”<br />
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dbs said...<br />
Thanks for a very thought provoking comment. I think that there is much encouragement for independent thought, but strictly within the bounds of the Torah. Man’s thoughts on morality are viewed (in my opinion) as being relativistic and biased, while the Torah is an objective reflection of God’s eternal will. In any case, my post reflects how I personally internalize the message. And, I do think that the Akeidah is a lesson in faith over thought. I will look for the book.<br />
January 20, 2006 12:33 AM<br />
anonymous said...<br />
"Man’s thoughts on morality are viewed (in my opinion) as being relativistic and biased, while the Torah is an objective reflection of God’s eternal will."<br />
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I think less so than generally thought. A sanhedrin could theoretically overturn any d'oreisas that are learned from droshas, and of course d'rabbanons and gezeiras.<br />
January 31, 2006 12:16 PM<br />
Ben Avuyah said...<br />
>>>I think less so than generally thought. A sanhedrin could theoretically overturn any d'oreisas that are learned from droshas, and of course d'rabbanons and gezeiras. <br />
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but the prerequisite to being on the sanhedrin is buying into a system that considers human morality a mere shadow of absolute godly morality.<br />
February 09, 2006 9:40 AM<br />
Foilwoman said...<br />
Daas: I'm not Orthodox or even Jewish, but the story of Abraham and Isaac was always deeply troubling to me and is one of the sources of my rejection of a literal reading of any part of the Bible. What kind of deity makes that sort of request as a proof of faith? Any entity that requests proof of my willingness to kill my offspring for any purpose (or asks my parents to do that to me), I would hope be exposed for the sick monster that it is. You explain the idea of submission to faith (actually, in a very Muslim way, ironically) wonderfully, but I just don't see how one can do that in the face of actually human feeling and need (much less the lifeblood of one's own child).<br />
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Anyone want to explain to me why the Abraham/Isaac story doesn't mean that the god of that story is a manipulative psychopath?<br />
February 09, 2006 11:27 AM<br />
dbs said...<br />
Foilwoman:Anyone want to explain to me why the Abraham/Isaac story doesn't mean that the god of that story is a manipulative psychopath?<br />
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I’ll give it a shot: God knew that Abraham’s children would sin, and be deserving of punishment. He therefore tested Abraham, knowing that Abraham would pass the test, thus creating a ‘merit’ which would help atone for his wayward children. It’s also helpful to understand that, from the orthodox perspective, death – while a bummer – is not really so bad.<br />
February 10, 2006 8:50 AM<br />
Foilwoman said...<br />
DBS: Still doesn't work for me. Anybody who willing kills their kid on command from anyone/anything is not doing something meritorious. Unless of course, one views the child as merely chattel rather than a person with humanity and the right (probably such a concept didn't exist in Abrahamic times) to exist, to not be harmed, blaah, blaah, blippity blaah. Since I reject the notion of inherited sin or merit, the whole idea of Abraham earning merit for his potential descendants by agreeing to kill one descendant off just seems sick to me.<br />
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I understand the values then were different, and that human sacrifice was not unheard of then, but a god that requires such a thing, even just conceptually and not in actually really doesn't rate too high in my book. Actually, it seems rather Jim Jones-ish (or pick your favorite cult). You know: "Do you love me (god)? Do you really, really love me? Well, prove it. Here's your child. Kill him because I ask it of you." That's really what's being said. When Abraham proves that he's nuts enough to do it, god let's him off. That's not a loving story. That's not a loving god. That's a story about control, withholding, and abuse (and if the reprieve hadn't come, murder).<br />
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That story stops me in my tracks every time. There is no way I have found to read it which doesn't make me think that the god of that story sounds like an abusive and not mentally well cult leader. Judaism, Christianity, Islam all tell versions of this story and they all make my blood run cold.<br />
February 10, 2006 11:00G*3http://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6333352338723538012.post-13341785625905790192011-09-27T05:45:00.001-07:002011-09-27T05:45:55.324-07:00'Wrong again' & Rosh Hashona thoughtsOriginally posted on Baal Habos<br />
21 SEPTEMBER 2009<br />
<a href="http://baalhabos.blogspot.com/">Link</a><br />
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Wrong again.<br />
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I met another hidden Frum skeptic. But for me, Reuvein is different from all other skeptics I've encountered. Very very different. Reuvein is someone I know in real life outside the skeptic world; someone I have known for more than thirty years!! Someone who is fairly close to me. No, not a relative but someone between acquaintance and good friend.<br />
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Several things about this underscores an important message to myself, namely how often I can be wrong about things.<br />
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Firstly, I call this friend Reuvein. As in - Reuvein borrowed a hundred zuzim from Shimon ("lent" if you're from a Chareidi Yeshiva ;).<br />
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While I did suspect Reuvein of harboring heretical thoughts, he was, like me, the perfect "Baal Habos".<br />
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Reuvein has been a skeptic since before he got married, well over thirty years. And this destroys one of my most basic assumptions. See, I always assume that I'm a typical person. If I act one way, then my behaviour is typical. Not that everyone thinks exactly like me of course, but that I'm, well, typical. And reasonable. And that if someone similar to me (same background, personality, etc) would encounter the same set of events or circumstances as I, that we'd react in basically the same manner. And here's where I'm totally wrong. And it's not even a Chiddush to me. Yet, the lesson needs to be constantly hammered into me. Because had I been in Reuvein's shoes, I think I'd be long gone. And the long gone of my Starting Over post, is probably not as far gone as I'd really be!<br />
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Yet Reuvein, a hardened skeptic, made the decision to stay put, practically in the heart of Chareidi-land. Not out of an Orthprax sense of idealism. Rather, he decided that for purely social reasons (parents, friends, etc), that he'd stay put and marry a (more or less) typical Bais Yaakov girl. And that is completely mind-boggling to me. So that makes me re-think my stance on what I'd have done in his shoes, had I found out before I got married. Of course, it makes not a shred of difference, but it makes me realize how my assumptions about others are very often wrong.<br />
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And here's another shocker to me. I happened to see him in action, in shul. And this just really blows me away. Unlike me who spends a lot of his shul time surveying the shul or learning something , he usually is literally sitting and looking in the siddur, practically following along line by line. (What's going on in that big brain of his, I don't know, but it's definitely not Perush Hamilos). And that destroyed an important assumption of mine which is that I'd easily recognize a fellow frum koifer in shul.<br />
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So that's good news and bad news. The good news is there may be others out there; but the bad news is they're not be so easy to find.<br />
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Reuvein, unlike me, has no interest in blogs, computers, etc or other skeptic companionship. He had long ago "given" up on society and does not follow skepticism the way many of us do. I.e. he has no fixation on skeptic issues, such as DH, Philosophy, etc. It's pure science for him. That's another case of "Al Hatam V'all Hareyach".<br />
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Another bit of disheartening news is I'm the only full blown Frum skeptic that Reuvein has ever met. Maybe that's because Reuvein is not on the prowl the way I am. Still, thirty years is thirty years.<br />
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Wrong Again & Rosh Hashana thoughts.<br />
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The upshot of this post, is how wrong I can be about things. And it's not just me who is often wrong. It's amazing how often popular thinking, even scientific thinking can be wrong. For example, a recent article explains that a long held assumption about the evolution of dinosaurs was destroyed with the discovery of a smaller T-rex with the same features as larger ones. And scientific assumptions like this come tumbling down almost every day.<br />
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And that leads to an important question which is: "Am I wrong about OJ?".<br />
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Unfortunately, the answer is still a clear and resounding no.<br />
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What these turnabouts do, at least for me, is turn me into a more critical thinker, not a less critical one.<br />
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No matter how many mistakes and false starts science makes (and unlike religion, admits to), the indisputable advances of science testify to the credibility of the scientific method.<br />
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The only thing religion will get you is peace of mind and a good social circle. I'm not knocking these, but they're clearly subjective.<br />
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Rosh Hashana thoughts<br />
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As an exercise, the next time you lain the story of Akeidas Yitzchok, try inserting your own son's name instead of Yitzchak. I guarantee you that Sarah Imeinu would never have passed failed the Nisayon. <br />
posted by Baal Habos @ 9/21/2009 <br />
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MK <br />
>I guarantee you that Sarah Imeinu would never have passed failed the Nisayon. <br />
Not sure what you mean by this. I know for certain that given a choice I would not do it. Does that mean I "failed"? Perhaps. I pray that Hashem never test me that way. <br />
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What strikes me is that if you could out "Reuven", how do you know who has outed you? <br />
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I would ask you to please take a few minutes to listen to this by Rabbi Daniel Mechanic. <br />
Please keep an open mind, remember his audiance is a group of high school kids, but do not be tempted to dismiss his words because of his delivery style. <br />
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Let me know what you think. <br />
Tuesday, September 22, 2009, 11:29:03 AM<br />
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Baal Habos <br />
MK, <br />
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>Not sure what you mean by this. I know for certain that given a choice I would not do it. Does that mean I "failed"? <br />
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You'd disobey a direct order from Hashem? Cool. <br />
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>What strikes me is that if you could out "Reuven", how do you know who has outed you? <br />
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Not sure what you mean. <br />
If you mean 'Out Reuvein' in the sense of Publicly ID him, I certainly did not do that. If you mean how did we hook up, I can't get into that without divulging info that I don't want to. Halevai other frum skeptics would "out me" in the sense you're referring to. <br />
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>I would ask you to please take a few minutes to listen to this by Rabbi Daniel Mechanic. <br />
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A few? You mean over 70! <br />
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>Please keep an open mind, remember his audiance is a group of high school kids, but do not be tempted to dismiss his words because of his delivery style. <br />
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I listened to 25 minutes, because he's well known and has a cute delivery. But he hasn't said anything that's convincing at all. (Lot's of name-dropping though!). I had even read that book he mentions, "permission to believe". The arguments are good , until you study them and realize there are strong counter-arguments. <br />
Tuesday, September 22, 2009, 12:17:05 PM<br />
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The Hedyot <br />
So how did you discover Reuvein? <br />
Tuesday, September 22, 2009, 12:19:57 PM<br />
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MK <br />
>You'd disobey a direct order from Hashem? Cool. <br />
Not cool, but then I'm not Avruhom Auvinu. "Chotusie, Pushatie, etc." <br />
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>But he hasn't said anything that's convincing at all. <br />
What about the argument that there are 600,000+ witnesses to TMS? And I've asked my grandfather, who asked his grandfather, etc.? Personally, this was always one of my strongest reasons for believing. <br />
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>I had even read that book he mentions, "permission to believe". The arguments are good , until you study them and realize there are strong counter-arguments. <br />
I didn't read the book, will try to get a copy. <br />
Tuesday, September 22, 2009, 12:32:56 PM<br />
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Baal Habos <br />
Hedyot, <br />
>So how did you discover Reuvein? <br />
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That's not for on-line disclosure. Let's just say we had a Shadchan. <br />
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MK, <br />
>Not cool, but then I'm not Avruhom Auvinu. "Chotusie, Pushatie, etc." <br />
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But a direct order?????????????????? <br />
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>But he hasn't said anything that's convincing at all. <br />
What about the argument that there are 600,000+ witnesses to TMS? And I've asked my grandfather, who asked his grandfather, etc.? Personally, this was always one of my strongest reasons for believing. <br />
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I did not hear that, maybe that was after the 25 minute mark on that video. But that's neither here nor there. The Kuzari Principal has been debated many times. If it works for you, Ashrecha and dee zults zein gebentcht! <br />
Tuesday, September 22, 2009, 12:50:54 PM<br />
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Halo <br />
it would make an interesting blog series posting things you wrote on the blog or in comments that you no longer agree with <br />
Tuesday, September 22, 2009, 2:53:13 PM<br />
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Baal Habos <br />
> it would make an interesting blog series posting things you wrote on the blog or in comments that you no longer agree with <br />
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It might be but don't think I have the inclination for that right now, I'll be closing up again for another six months very soon. <br />
Tuesday, September 22, 2009, 3:00:59 PM<br />
– Like – ReplyG*3http://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.com0