Originally posted on Baal Habos
16 March 2009
I can't tell you how many times I've participated in a conversation such as the following:
BHB: So what does your son/son-in-law do?
Other: He's a Rebbe/fund raiser/still
learning/Tutoring/Learning/Shteiging.
BHB: Are you happy with that?
Other: Not really/Not at all. I really wanted him to be a lawyer/accountant/doctor but this is what he wants to do.
Other: He's a Rebbe/fund raiser/still
learning/Tutoring/Learning/Shteiging.
BHB: Are you happy with that?
Other: Not really/Not at all. I really wanted him to be a lawyer/accountant/doctor but this is what he wants to do.
Notice the Bnei Torah have no compunction in ignoring their parents wishes.
Now of course, I understand. Even from a secular perspective everyone can and should do what he or she pleases and a person shouldn't live their lives to fill their parents dreams or desires. And of course from a religious perspective there are a host of other reasons, such as Divrei Harav V'divrei Hatalmud, etc.
But what I've noticed is the Bnei Torah don't seem to even care that they're letting their parent's down.
But note the irony in this. I can't tell you how many times I've heard from Skeptics or about Skeptics, how difficult it is for them to break the news to their parents that they no longer believe. I don't recall the details clearly, but IIRC I've heard about one skeptic who plans on marrying a shiksa but intends to tell the girl he has no parents, just so that he won't bring her to his parents and they won't know he's marring outside the faith. Now, I happen to think that's a bit crazy. OK, even alot crazy. But Wow. THAT's what I call respect for and not desiring to hurt your parents. Even though it might be inevitable, almost every single skeptic who comes out of the closet has parental feelings as one of his primary concerns.
So who has real Kibud Av V'em? The Bnei Torah or the Skeptics?
And of course, that's just another manifestation of the problem with the Torah and even Torah Morality. It's really only lip-service to morality.
Because, even in morality issues, the Torah doesn't mean what it says. It means what the Rabbis want it to mean.
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What do Chazal say on Ish omo ve'oviv tirohu, ve'es shabsosai tishmoriu?
We are taught the attitude you mention in school very early on in our lives.
Monday, March 16, 2009, 9:20:11 PM
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there's a difference between disappointing your parents and completely devastating them to the point where they might never want to have anything to do with you again. the former is a little easier than the latter.
Monday, March 16, 2009, 9:30:47 PM
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I've heard about one skeptic who plans on marrying a shiksa
Giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming that you are quoting someone when you use the denigrating term "shiksa"!
Monday, March 16, 2009, 9:53:01 PM
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Halo, you're absolutely right.
Frum, what? Since when is Shikseh a denigrating term?! It's nowhere near like what's going Jackie Mason now.
Monday, March 16, 2009, 10:06:49 PM
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>We are taught the attitude you mention in school very early on in our lives.
Yep, I agree what I said is no real chiddush on the religious side.
Monday, March 16, 2009, 10:22:34 PM
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Greta post. I like to call it "frum arrogance." There's just no negotiating with extremists.
Monday, March 16, 2009, 11:13:45 PM
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BHB,
I would have to agree with Halo on this one. It's because of the attitude pt mentioned, that OJ parent have learned to accept it. But sadly it doesn't make it any easier later in life when their kids struggle to make a living.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 12:11:15 AM
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BHB,
Did you take a look in Kugel's book for "Es La'Asos L'Hashem"?
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 12:31:39 AM
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I'm not sure if you're thinking of someone else, but I might have told you about the guy who wasn't going to tell his parents, but if it was me, you're mixing it up a bit. He wasn't actually proposing that because he was in a relationship with someone and was faced with the situation. He simply said that if he was faced with that kind of situation, that's what he would consider doing. Doesn't actually change your point, but just thought I'd clarify, in case it was the story I had told you which you were referring to.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 2:04:09 AM
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Mark, I read his book, but I don't recall the reference.
Hedyot, yes, it was you that I heard the story from, and as I said in the post, the details were a bit hazy.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 7:29:36 AM
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lets see - your kids spend 10 hours a day in a day school - and whether its mixed or not, their limudaie kodesh teachers are mostly chareidi - hammering this attitude of talmud torah k'neged kulam for 10 years! They come home and eat dinner and hang out a bit, go to shul with their parents on shabbos - and then get sent off to israel - again with the charedi teachers hammering this attitude into them - and we are surprised by their decisions when they are older?
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 8:37:29 AM
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>and we are surprised by their decisions when they are older?
Not at all. I understand the decision. It's the emotion behind the decision, or lack of it as to how the parents will care, that I'm referring to. The lack of angst, shall we say, on the part of Yeshiva boys.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 8:41:30 AM
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There's a big difference between the yeshiva guy and the skeptic. The parents of the yeshiva guy, while they might prefer that he have a profession, usually see both a career and learning as valid options. They may prefer one over the other, (perhaps strongly), but both are valid ways of life. The skeptic, on the other hand, is presenting his parents with a way of life that they see as invalid and that repudates everything they have taught their child. The second is clearly much worse.
There is also "talmud torah keneged kulam" which is usually interpreted as learning is the point of existance, everything else is a waste of time (bittul torah), is done so that others may learn, or for nebachs who can't learn.
And finally, Kibad av was Eisav's middah, so it can't really be worth much, right?
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 9:24:21 AM
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>And finally, Kibad av was Eisav's middah, so it can't really be worth much, right?
LOL. Gut Gezokt. There's an Upshlug for everything.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 9:49:23 AM
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Sorry for side tracking a little, but the schmooze in all honesty should go like this:
BHB: So what does your son/son-in-law do?
Other: He's a Rebbe/fund raiser/still
learning/Tutoring/Learning/Shteiging.
BHB: Are you happy with that?
Other: Not really/Not at all. I really wanted him to be a lawyer/accountant/doctor but I didn't give him the education he would have needed for that, and he is B"H doing the same to his children, so he cannot have too much ta'anes on me.
>... but I didn't give him the education he would have needed for that, and he is B"H doing the same to his children, so he cannot have too much ta'anes on me.
Not in my Baalebattaish circles. Most kids have an adequate education to go to Grad school. The kids choose to sit and learn instead of work. On the contrary, they can have no taanos to us, but their own children can certainly have Taanos. My kids are CHOOSING to step back into the ghetto, leaving the grandchildren without the choice and tools their parents were graced with.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 11:22:08 AM
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So I guess, I am writing for your einklach.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 11:34:07 AM
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BHB,
He doesn't mention it, he just quotes the Posuk and Gemarah on it on a separate page before beginning the book. If you have it take a look, otherwise forget it, it's not that important.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 12:31:50 PM
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>My kids are CHOOSING to step back into the ghetto, leaving the grandchildren without the choice and tools their parents were graced with.
I don't know how you take that. One thing is all the rest of it, but self destruction is hard to witness when happening to one's family.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 12:33:32 PM
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And on the general point of your post, I have to agree with a previous commenter that there is a difference between disappointing one's parents, and completely devastating them. That said, you still have a point. Personally, I tried as I hard as I could to keep my new "Meshugas" away from my father, and he found out after a while, when confronting me directly and I had no choice but to spill the beans. And even then, I could have wiggled out of it had I wanted and told him what he wanted to hear, but I didn't because I couldn't lie to him. In short there was no great Tzidkus going on here, but my primary concern was not letting my father down. So you're correct there.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 12:40:13 PM
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Mark, I don;t have that Sefer anymore. :)
>I don't know how you take that. One thing is all the rest of it, but self destruction is hard to witness when happening to one's family.
Tsuros Rabim - Chatzi Nechama.
> And on the general point of your post, I have to agree with a previous commenter that there is a difference between disappointing one's parents, and completely devastating them.
Sure, I agree with him too!
>That said, you still have a point.
I agree with that too!
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 1:00:52 PM
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Have you been following XGHs place lately. He has gone completely bonkers, especially with his latest post (the first few paragraphs). I intend to write something there, but I don't have the Koach to get into a punching match with him, though I will try to come up with one coherent comment and let the rest of you judge.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 1:09:58 PM
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Im not sure, but since when does Kibud av v'em mean finding a career that they want? What if instead of learning and being a rabbi, this individual went on to become a mechanic or botonist, would you still claim he is being disrespectful of his parents? Me thinks you are only picking here because he went on to being a rabbi and not a "normal" job.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 1:18:46 PM
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MArk, I haven;t been following GH much, too involved in OP philosphy and I have a hard time coming to grips with that.
Holy, can't you guys read? As I've said a few times, it's the ATTITUDE that I object too, not the actual career difference. No one should pick a career to satisfy their parents, and I thought I spelled that out.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 1:24:08 PM
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What attitude?
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 1:27:09 PM
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>What attitude?
As I said in the post
"But what I've noticed is the Bnei Torah don't seem to even care that they're letting their parent's down."
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 1:54:15 PM
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HH, It's possible you won't relate because you don't know what Yeshivish OJ culture is like.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 1:58:07 PM
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some charedi people even look down at their parents because they think their parents lack yiras shamayim.
Off topic - I still love XGH's blog after all these years. He brings humor and passion to what ever side he's on (unless he's depressed)
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 2:03:26 PM
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> some charedi people even look down at their parents because they think their parents lack yiras shamayim.
Oy vey. I never really thought of it that way, but it's probably true.
>Off topic - I still love XGH's blog after all these years. He brings humor and passion to what ever side he's on (unless he's depressed)
He's still the King. I just can't relate to a lot of that "intelleOrthopraxis". Just come out and say it "I'm stuck".
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 2:14:36 PM
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>Just come out and say it "I'm stuck".
I think it's more complicated than that. I think he really feels value in it. He doesn't have as negative attitude as you do. That may have to do with the fact that he's LWMO
> think he really feels value in it.
I do too.
>He doesn't have as negative attitude as you do.
That is very true
> That may have to do with the fact that he's LWMO
Probably
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 2:26:54 PM
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> think he really feels value in it.
>I do too.
you think frumkeit has value over a secular lifestyle? If so, why would you say you're stuck?
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 2:35:37 PM
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Well, I would like to know if its true they "don't care" about disappointing their parents. The problem here is the parents that put them in a spot that they can actually worry about making an honest career decision without the parents over their necks.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 2:37:13 PM
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>you think frumkeit has value over a secular lifestyle? If so, why would you say you're stuck?
I'm not saying in totality it has greater value than the secular system. But it certainly has value. And I think if XGH thinks it does have greater value, it's because he's stuck. It's another form of Cognitive Dissonance.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 2:52:17 PM
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>The problem here is the parents that put them in a spot that they can actually worry about making an honest career decision without the parents over their necks.
Can you rephrase? Or did you too have a yeshiva education? ;)
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 2:53:35 PM
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"Bnei Torah don't seem to care that they're letting their parents down"
Some do, some don't. Do you think they're relatively less considerate of their parents' feelings than teens who go OTD? Or non-Jews? or reform teens? I'm all for well-aimed generalizations but this one's pretty shaky. I'll grant that there's that instilled attitude that they're obeying a Higher Power, and so their poor unenlightened parents' feelings are irrelevant. But not always---far more often, the parents themselves give mixed signals. Many of these parents are quite wimpy &/or passive/aggressive--they kvetch to others that they're unhappy w/their kids' choices, but did they ever clearly, unequivocally voice their feelings to the child in question? Better yet, did they declare that they have no intention of supporting that lifestyle? Almost never. Few frum parents have the guts to go against the prevailing winds within frum society on even the most trivial matters; no one wants to be less frum than the "Cohens".
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 3:11:21 PM
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...And even when parents do whine about it, they typically say, "If I were a millionaire and could afford to support all my kids in learning for life, I'd love to, but unfortunately I'm not able..."
What a cop-out! Pure PC drivel. Little Moishy Kollelboy is statistically very unlikely to be that one-in-a-thousand someone who actually learns 95% of their 10 hours worth of siddorim (or even 75%)---so Why? WHY would a parent "love" for their kid to live what is effectively a very undemanding, unstructured, unproductive (not to say lazy) existence, even if leavened with a few hours of real learning?! It's mindless, but there you go. For every kids these days sitting and learning, there's at least one parent whining ineffectually about expenses--(the trip to Israel! the $60G wedding! new YomTov outfits for the grandkids! the sterling esrog-box for a bar mitzvah gift!)---while telling everyone they're kid's learning in this or that yeshiva, as if that were in itself a sign of tremendous intellectual accomplishment.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 3:28:55 PM
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JS, Just as I'm not talking about teens who are becoming Rebbeim, I'm not talking about OTD teens who are dropping out of High School. I'm talking about Skeptic young adults. As a rule, they seem to be very considerate of their parents' feelings, assuming they had a good relationship with them all along. And I think you'd be surprized at how many parents are quite vocal with their childrens' choices. Yet, I think you are alluding to a valid point, similiar to that raised by others, namely that sitting in learning is not as painful to parents as apostacy is. When commiserating amongst ourselves, the parents often say, better too frum than not frum enough. So, you're probably right, the attitude does trickle down to the kids. Yet, I don't see any sense of angst on the part of these Bnai Torah. Of course, that's only my personal anectodal experience.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 3:33:08 PM
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>And I think if XGH thinks it does have greater value, it's because he's stuck. It's another form of Cognitive Dissonance.
if you say so, Doctor
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 3:35:23 PM
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>...And even when parents do whine about it, they typically say, "If I were a millionaire and could afford to support all my kids in learning for life, I'd love to, but unfortunately I'm not able..."
That is very true, many equivocate that way. I usually come out and say it "I don't believe in it except for yechidim"
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 3:36:18 PM
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> >And I think if XGH thinks it does have greater value, it's because he's stuck. It's another form of Cognitive Dissonance.
>if you say so, Doctor
I'll ask him. And CC you.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 3:37:50 PM
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>Can you rephrase? Or did you too have a yeshiva education?
Sorry. I am simply saying, why should any parent put their child on spot in that the child, will have to feel uncomfortable when he decides NOT to find job in what their parents expected. The fact that parents have career expectations (at least in this case) is the problem, not with the child being honest about a different field that excites them more.
>Sorry. I am simply saying, why should any parent put their child on spot in that the child, will have to feel uncomfortable when he decides NOT to find job in what their parents expected. The fact that parents have career expectations (at least in this case) is the problem, not with the child being honest about a different field that excites them more.
Still unclear (re-read it and see if you left something out), but I think I get your drift.
A) I am simply saying, why should any parent put their child on spot in that the child, will have to feel uncomfortable when he decides to live a normal secular life as lived my hundreds of millions of Americans. The fact that parents have religious expectations (at least in this case) is the problem, not with the child being honest about a different was of life that excites them more
B) how, as I've said many times, it's not the actual shift. I can ‘t really blame the Bnei Torah for doing as they've been brainwashed. I am ticked off by the lack of caring as to how the parents feel.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 5:27:50 PM
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Well, it looks like you understood me fine, except you put in religion, where I was talking about this specific instant of career.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 6:33:34 PM
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>Well, it looks like you understood me fine, except you put in religion, where I was talking about this specific instant of career.
I'm comparing the letdown of not meeting expectations or desires, makes no difference in what.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 7:25:59 PM
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Of course it does. One is leaving your identiy and heritage (from the perspective of the parents), the other is a job.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 8:04:37 PM
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Since when is Shikseh a denigrating term?!
Seriously? Tell me that you're not aware of its derivation from sheketz, abomination?
The word is used way too loosely, but even when used in a joking manner it often has a denigrating tone. People make excuses for the word the same way they make excuses for "shvartze", which doesn't have an objectionable origin but is almost always used as a term of disdain.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 10:18:36 PM
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> People make excuses for the word the same way they make excuses for "shvartze", which doesn't have an objectionable origin but is almost always used as a term of disdain.
Of course, I'm aware of the origin. But there you have it, it's not the derivation that counts, it's the usage. I disdain the 'Shva---" word, but I have no compunction with using the Shikseh word. I erred in my sidebar poll by including the Shikze to mir remark, because people may have chosen that segment just to get the joke across. So discounting that category, the numbers don't differ much, so there's "yesh al me lismoch".
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 10:49:35 PM
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>because people may have chosen that segment just to get the joke across.
Very perceptive. I can see you won't be working for any polling organizations any time soon though.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 11:08:46 PM
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I'm a 40 something BT who became frum around the age of 15. To this day I'm sure my parents would prefer I had chosen a non-Orthodox life. They think I made my life too hard (they happen to be right). Of course, they brought me up to be traditional Conservative, so why should they be upset that I crossed the line to MO?
But my point is that it's my life, and I made my choice. To this day I have angst about "disappointing" my parents. Since I'm confident I made the best choice for me, I'm not sure what's so great about having the angst.
Wednesday, March 18, 2009, 9:20:57 AM
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sorry, not on your side on this one. kids should not feel guilty by making a lifestyle choice that wasn't quite what their parents wanted. and the parents should get over it. (and no, by making a particular lifestyle choice, we didn't MAKE our parents want to disown us. They are accountable for their own decisions just as well as we are.) that goes for the frum as well as the fry.
i happen to believe that when OTD's take such great pains to hide things from their parents, it's not out of love, but fear.
Thursday, March 19, 2009, 8:00:55 AM
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>that goes for the frum as well as the fry.
Frei (free in German) not fry
>i happen to believe that when OTD's take such great pains to hide things from their parents, it's not out of love, but fear.
I'd say it is a little of both
Thursday, March 19, 2009, 10:17:05 AM
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>happen to believe that when OTD's take such great pains to hide things from their parents, it's not out of love, but fear.
fear of what? Disappointing their parents?
Thursday, March 19, 2009, 12:36:31 PM
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>Not really/Not at all. I really wanted him to be a lawyer/accountant/doctor but this is what he wants to do.
This is not what he wants to do. The Yeshiva has taken over his mind and convinced HIM that this is what he wants to do. The Yeshiva world has created a bunch of ROBOTS . Unthinking ROBOTS who can only say what they Yeshiva tells them to say..... Avi
Thursday, March 19, 2009, 1:38:42 PM
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Tesyaa.
>They think I made my life too hard (they happen to be right).
Are you saying you regret it?
> Since I'm confident I made the best choice for me, I'm not sure what's so great about having the angst.
See my comment below to Kisarita
> kids should not feel guilty by making a lifestyle choice that wasn't quite what their parents wanted. and the parents should get over it.
Kisarita, I'll try to say it one more time. Everyone should feel to make their own choices. And they shouldn't feel guilty about it. It's not that they're doing anything wrong. But they should feel bad for disappointing. Thais is NOT the same as guilt.
BTW, such nice namaes, Tesyaa & Kisarita.
>i happen to believe that when OTD's take such great pains to hide things from their parents, it's not out of love, but fear.
I second anon's question, fear of what? Fear of how their parents will take it! Which is exactly my point.
>I'd say it is a little of both
What are you afreaid of?
What are you afreaid of?**************************************
That I made the wrong choice.,,,Avi
Friday, March 20, 2009, 3:01:29 PM
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That's why you're not telling your Mommy?
Friday, March 20, 2009, 3:28:34 PM
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>What are you afreaid of?
I wasn't referring to myself per se. But someone who is still getting supported by their parents may fear getting cut off. As far as I'm concerned I'd rather not go through the whole drama for no good reason. If I could live my life more or less as I want and not hurt them, then that is the best of both worlds
Friday, March 20, 2009, 5:23:23 PM
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by the way, the same applies for me as far as my career is concerned. I may want to quit and live "off the land" for a while. but part of what stops me is society's and my parents wishes. I'm not saying it's the only reason, but it is a factor.
Friday, March 20, 2009, 5:28:30 PM
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I just want to point out to tesyaa and kisarita that it's not the same, going OTD and becoming a BT. When you go BT, you're only letting down your parents, you're not quite devastating them. Free choice is a value that is appreciated in secular culture, but hardly in the frum one. Also, to a frum parent it's often the end of the world if their kid goes OTD because they have all kinds of absolutist beliefs including the kid will spend an eternity in hell for the decision and countless other similar hangups which are hardly relevant to those who go BT.
Saturday, March 21, 2009, 8:50:05 AM
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Also, to a frum parent it's often the end of the world if their kid goes OTD because they have all kinds of absolutist beliefs including the kid will spend an eternity in hell for the decision and countless other similar hangups which are hardly relevant to those who go BT.
offthederech | Homepage | 03.21.09 - 8:55 am | #************************************** Sorry, but that is not always the case. If you come from a frum family as I do and you go OTD there are plenty of people to judge you and feel sorry for you including your own kids. Do you have any idea how thorny an issue it is when your grandchildren ask you a question and you really are afraid to answer it. All I can do is say ask your father. And thjen the kid thinks, what is my grandfather hiding from me and why.....Avi
Monday, March 23, 2009, 1:40:20 PM
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I would disagree with you and say that there are people on both sides of the tracks. You think that all the people learning and letting down their parents are only the ones that learn, but the ones that marry shiksa are so worried about their parents? I know several people that married shiksas and didn't care about what their parents thought at all and didn't care what it would do. They wanted to live their lives. Also, I know several people that wanted to learn the rest of their life and either didn't or figured out a way that would be pleasing to their parents/in-laws. So, although I agree there are a lot of people that learn all day that are living off their parents and disappointing them, there are also people that marry shiksas that care nothing about their parents opinion and don't even try to convert and make some kind of compromise or even think about what they are doing to their parents.
Saturday, April 25, 2009, 10:34:59 PM
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GH, on what grounds do you base your claims that kids who decide to learn don't feel any regret about disappointing their parents?
Also:
-> ...And even when parents do whine about it, they typically say, "If I were a millionaire and could afford to support all my kids in learning for life, I'd love to, but unfortunately I'm not able..."
What a cop-out! Pure PC drivel. Little Moishy Kollelboy is statistically very unlikely to be that one-in-a-thousand someone who actually learns 95% of their 10 hours worth of siddorim (or even 75%)---so Why? WHY would a parent "love" for their kid to live what is effectively a very undemanding, unstructured, unproductive (not to say lazy) existence, even if leavened with a few hours of real learning?! It's mindless, but there you go.
That's wrong. I agree that it's totally not for everybody, but for those for whom it's appropriate, Kollel is very productive. We (Orthodox Jews) believe that limud Torah keeps the world going. Also, I know plenty of Kollel guys (both in YU and in other yeshios), and I can assure you that the ones I know all keep AT LEAST 95% of their sedorim. I think it is insulting of you to assume that 9/10 of Kollel guys don't keep their sedorim.
Let me state that I don't approve of people going to Kollel by leaching off their parents who can't afford it. I know a couple in my neighborhood who skimp on necessities in order to support their son, and I think it's absolutely despicable of the son to put his parents in that situation. But for the right person in the right circumstance, it's great.
Saturday, April 25, 2009, 11:26:22 PM
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Fear of what?
-Fear of conflict
-Fear of being cut off
-fear of not being able to stick with our decision
-irrational existential fear of upsetting the status quo
Sunday, April 26, 2009, 1:08:52 PM
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My farther is a horrible man and if I defend myself in anyway from his verbal attacks he says 'you're going straight to hell because you don't have any respect for me' what should I do
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