Originally posted on The Skeptitcher Rebbe
Sunday, November 28, 2010
Link
I have been having a rather heated discussion with Brian Westley on OTDs blog post about circumcision here.
While I don't believe that circumcision has any superstitious benefits, I do believe it does have real social ones, namely avoidance of ostracism from within the Jewish community for your child (if you wish to be a part of the Jewish community). Also there isn't a reverse ostracism from outside the Jewish community either (having a circumcision is very common for non Jews as well). Since I don't think that the costs are too significant (mild memoryless pain for a short while, recovery in about a week) I think it should be up to the parents to decide whether or not their son should get one as an infant and shouldn't be banned universally.
What do you think?
Posted by Skeptitcher Rebbe at 11:28 AM
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28 comments:
G*3 said...
I don’t think anything should be banned unless it’s shown to be harmful. Circumcision has not been shown to be harmful, therefore it shouldn’t be banned.
November 28, 2010 12:04 PM
Bob said...
Male circumcision is a safe, popular, healthy & beneficial procedure for individuals & parents to choose. It provides benefits such as 12x less likely for UTI, +22x less likely for cancer, 28% less risk for herpes, 35% for HPV & 60% for HIV/AIDS. The risks are about 0.2% and are typically minor & easily corrected.
Parents should research circumcision and make an informed decision for the health & well-being of their son.
More information can be found at the following sites:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision
http://www.malecircumcision.org/
http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/factsheets/circumcision.htm
http://archpedi.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/164/1/104
http://www.circinfo.net
http://www.medicirc.org
November 28, 2010 12:16 PM
Baruch Spinoza said...
I have a different why I am against banning circumcision. You can read about it here ( http://skepticbutjewish.blogspot.com/2010/11/ban-circumcision.html ).
November 28, 2010 1:50 PM
Caroline said...
Eliyahu Ungar Sargon made an interesting film on the topic
"Cut: Slicing Through the Myths of Circumcision"
http://cutthefilm.com/Cut_Website/Home.html
November 29, 2010 4:04 PM
Caroline said...
Also,
Jewishcircumcision.org
jewsagainstcircumcision.org
November 29, 2010 4:05 PM
Hugh7 said...
Isn't "avoidance of ostracism" an unworthy motive for cutting part of a child's genitals off? If the community ostracises someone because of something someone else hasn't done to them, shame on that community! Who do they think they are? Let them mind their own business!
@G*3: How about the fact that a significant number of men hate the fact that it was done to them? More than 70 have signed up for a class action. Apart from certain harm, the risks, from unaesthetic outcomes all the way to loss of the penis and death, go underreported.
Bob's figures need context. For example, since less than one in 100 boys gets a UTI, by his own figure, 991 circumcisions in 1000 are wasted. His citations are laughably biased.
#Jewish philosopher: Only for adult volunteers where AIDS is rampant. The protection (even if genuine) is only for infection by men from women, very rare in the US.
A small but growing number of Jewish parents are choosing to name their sons without surgery. Contact details for celebrants, including a number of rabbis, are here. One, in New York, has celebrated hundreds.
November 29, 2010 6:04 PM
Skeptitcher Rebbe said...
Hugh7,
Many people permanently alter the bodies of their children in ways that don't affect the functionality of those bodies, but are done solely for the reason to avoid social ostracism. Such things like altering a deformed ear or nose which funtion totally normally from a medical standpoint but are seen by most in society as being an abnormality.
I don't see why allowing a parent to alter their minor childs body is acceptable in the above case is acceptable whereas with circumcision doing it for the same reason considered unacceptable. I am willing to change my mind on this, I just haven't been convinced that the differences in either scenario are too far removed or that the effects of circumcision are so negative and harmful to oppose the practice universally.
November 29, 2010 7:34 PM
Tony said...
Skeptitcher Rebbe,
The above is acceptable because it is a deformity. The foreskin is not a deformity. It is a normal body part. No one is suggesting that medically necessary circumcision is unacceptable. Proxy consent has validity. But altering a child's healthy body to avoid something that may not happen or may not bother the child is bizarre.
For example, I have red hair. I was mocked for this throughout childhood (and still am, amusingly). Should my parents have forcibly dyed my hair to save me from this social torment? That's not permanent, either. The correct analogy to circumcision, of course, is for them to continue forcibly changing my hair color now based on their opinion of my body, whether I want it or not. Since I can't undo the circumcision they forced on me.
Yet, I'm indifferent to the ridicule I receive about my hair. Why should I care what my peers think? They can judge me for being who I am, but that doesn't lessen me in any way. I learned that because I was mocked for who I am. It's a cliche, but the social attacks made me stronger, not weaker.
As for the effects of circumcision, it's objective harm. It's a surgical alteration that removes healthy tissue and nerves. It creates a wound. It leaves scarring. There is a risk of infection and complications from the surgery. And it alters the functioning of the penis. (An objective claim, unlike the subjective question of whether it's better or worse.)
Does the individual want any of that? I don't. Why should my parents' misguided, inaccurate perception about my body rule over my (lack of) need while I was in their care? As I said, at 37 years old, it's a decision they're effectively still making for me. Permitting that under proxy consent is flawed.
November 29, 2010 9:22 PM
Hugh said...
As a common slogan has it, "A foreskin is not a birth defect", and it is very odd to treat it as though it is. (People in the US seem far readier than elsewhere to modify their children for conformity's sake alone, as witness the preoccupation with straight teeth. It may also have to do with the economics of the health care system.)
Circumcision does affect functionality. I don't imagine you have talked to many intact men in detail about exactly what is conferred by their foreskins. It has been described as "a symphony of sensation" - not just more sensitive, but better sensitive. Cutting off the foreskin, with its ~20,000 nerves specialised for feedback, is like pulling out the accelerator pedal and leaving an on-off switch. You can still get there, but the journey is not as enjoyable.
Forgotten pain was still pain at the time, and how long does it take to forget? Taddio et al. found circumcised babies react differently to the pain of vaccination, months later. Crimes committed on drugged victims are still crimes, even though they are not remembered.
November 30, 2010 3:59 AM
Skeptitcher Rebbe said...
But its only considered a deformity by social standards not natural ones. The weird looking ear functions just as well as any other ear. If you are indifferent by the ridicule you receive from your hair, why should you try to alter the shape of the ear so that your son or daughter wont be? If it really makes you stronger why is it altered at all if there is no medically necessary purpose? It is for purely social reasons it is altered so why alter it? Deformity is only something you in your society consider abnormal, what is to stop another society from considering it an acceptable deviation?
I have heard opposite accounts on how sex life after a person had a circumcision was actually improved. More nerve endings doesn't necessarily mean better sex.
Sex may or may not be more enjoyable with a foreskin, but for those who have one they will never be able to tell what it is like without it. For those without one (even if it was voluntary) will never be able to go back, so its not really like an individual can compare sex life with and without a foreskin and then choose to have his foreskin. So I don't really see that as a strong argument, since comparisons and decisions based on that comparisons with regards to sex are practically impossible.
Hugh, I would like to see the study by Taddio if you don't mind. I think that is an interesting factor to take into account, as long as I understand what exactly was tested and what the findings were.
November 30, 2010 10:23 AM
Skeptitcher Rebbe said...
One more comment, I just don't really agree that circumcisions really are all that harmful. I am beginning to think that the benefits I am describing are not really all that rational.
But if I were going to try to force my views on my wife and refuse to let her circumcise my son I think I am going to have to have a really convincing argument for the horrible and terribly harmful thing circumcision is, and as of yet I am not convinced that it is. I still see it as a fairly mild operation with very little functional difference in the person. If it wasn't a common practice and my wife didn't insist on its importance I definitely wouldn't do it but as things are now I don't believe my son will be all that upset or resentful, because it really is not such a big deal IMO.
If I had convincing evidence that showed beyond a reasonable doubt that circumcision is something that truly is harmful to a child then I would reconsider position on it.
November 30, 2010 10:47 AM
Tony said...
I'm not suggesting I think parents should have surgery on their children if the child has a deformity. I have a family member with a mild birth defect. It hasn't been corrected because there's no need. My only point is that I won't judge parents who face that tough decision for their children. At least they're confronting an abnormality.
Parents who circumcise their normal children don't face that decision. They're deciding in favor of common at the expense of normal. That's not a valid decision by proxy.
What is it that's preventing you from seeing the harm of circumcision? I'm genuinely asking because I'd like to persuade you, if you're open to listening. I think you are.
Circumcision is objective harm. That much is undeniable, as there's a wound after the surgery. I accept that the value of that harm weighed against the claimed benefits is subjective to the individual.
For me, it's not close. It's a net harm because I don't value the cultural conformity it was meant to confer, and I resent my parents for forcing it on me. But I don't expect that everyone will or should have that opinion. I only expect everyone to understand that anyone could have that opinion. Parents aren't psychic. Imposing their preferences on their child when those preferences do physical harm is wrong because the child may not want the potential, subjective benefits the parents value.
November 30, 2010 4:22 PM
Skeptitcher Rebbe said...
"What is it that's preventing you from seeing the harm of circumcision?
....
Circumcision is objective harm. That much is undeniable, as there's a wound after the surgery."
Well I guess the objective harm as being minimal enough for it not to really matter. To me its like parents who choose to pierce their daughters ears as an infant. There is pain and there is permament scarring to the ears. No medical purpose, only for social reasons, and who knows if the child would want their ears pierced.
I think your arguments are valid, but there are two main reasons I don't feel that the harm is significant enough for me to be universally against the practice.
1) While there is scarring, it is "normal" scarring in our society and the pain for infants truly is minimal if the procedure is done properly. My son when he was circumcised cried literally no more than a few seconds, the wound healed in a couple of days, and he didn't show any discomfort in that area since the cut was made.
2) The pain and distress for those who wish to be circumcised later on in life, even a young child a couple years old is very very high, and the healing process takes weeks and sometimes over a month. If my son did decide, at an age where he could consent, that he wanted to be circumcised, to fit in or for other reasons, I would have to put him through a horribly painful procedure. I know of one Jew who is very upset with his parents for not getting him circumcised since he did want to fit in later in life and the procedure was very painful, he said he could barely walk for weeks. I would much rather spare my child of having to make that decision at all and give him a relatively painless memoryless surgery over that scenario.
There are no guarantees either way and a son could be equally upset with his parents for either not circumcising him, or for circumcising him. Like you said parents aren't psychic and it is impossible to tell what is the likelyhood for either case, but for a Jewish family it is likely to be higher than for a non Jewish one that the child would rather have a circumcision, but there aren't any garuantees.
For you it was a net harm, for others it could be a net gain. For me it was a net gain, I probably would have been just as pissed at my parents as you are if they hadn't circumcised me since I would have to go through this grueling process which could have easily been avoided as a child.
Thus I view the decision from the parents perspective to be basically on neutral grounds. There is a possibility it will be a net gain or loss for the child to circumcise, but it is also possible it will be a net gain or loss for the child to not circumcise. Since the likelyhood of all the cases are unknown I don't feel like there is a general net harm to the procedure and I basically view it as net neutral.
btw I am enjoying this conversation very much and your comments have been very thoughtful and engaging. Thanks.
November 30, 2010 5:44 PM
Rabbi Lamech Somayach Meshumad Meshubach said...
If you want Jewish boys to avoid HIV keep them away from Rabbi Yehudda Kolko at Yeshiva Torah Temimah in Brooklyn, NY.
December 1, 2010 12:25 AM
Tony said...
The facts that pain can be minimal (not entirely verifiable) and not remembered aren't relevant. Such reasons could justify any number of invasive procedures on a child. If you numb him up, you could punch him in the face and do less permanent damage than circumcision. It's an intentionally absurd example, of course, but it gets at my point that all of the extraneous factors we wrap into this discussion distract from the core. The act needs to be judged on its objective facts, not the subjective add-ons each of us value in our own way.
Yes, I think it's likely that a significant number of boys left intact and raised Jewish would want circumcision. I don't see a conflict there. This isn't about despising circumcision, per se. Whatever might motivate someone to choose it for himself is valid for him. I don't think circumcision itself is automatically bad. But force is. This is about each individual retaining choice over his own (healthy) body.
In economic terms, the basic concept is that all individual tastes and preferences are subjective. I don't value circumcision. I value not being harmed (however minimally one might judge it). I don't value cultural conformity. I don't value the potential health benefits. And so on. That's my collection of preferences. Yours are different and they're no less valid. But each of our preferences are only valid for ourselves.
Overall statistics show a different story on what males left intact will likely choose or need. The percentage of circumcision among those men is very small. That's useful for the general population.
But you raise a valid issue within the ritual subset of circumcision. It's necessary to address this. Again, all individual tastes and preferences are subjective. Circumcision has claimed benefits, claimed harms, and objective harms. Each individual can decide for himself how he weights each item. For Jewish males who would have to choose circumcision later in life, they would decide whether they value the commandment and/or social benefits more than the real physical cost(s). If they choose circumcision, yes, the healing process will be challenging, although I've read anecdotal evidence across the spectrum of possible experiences for adult circumcision. (I wouldn't confine the choice to 18+, just consenting males.) But they will be choosing for themselves that the benefits are more than the costs. Males raised Jewish who later reject circumcision or Judaism entirely are stuck with their parents' choice.
I think our difference is partially in utilitarian (i.e. community) versus individual thinking. I have no issue with decisions for communal reasons, but the individual is superior in the narrative of rights. He must choose permanent inclusion in a community. Without the option to exit, even if he wouldn't exercise it, it's an issue of force.
The remaining issue is, of course, our evaluation of the objective harm. I think the comparison to ear piercing is useful, but the difference in degree is significant. Ear piercing doesn't remove a normal, healthy body part. It doesn't alter the functioning of a body part. The loss of the foreskin is a significant portion of the harm. Most boys will come out of circumcision with the typical, intended results, and the wound will heal. But the foreskin will be gone. It won't be there to protect the glans. It won't be there to provide gliding action during sexual activities. The nerve endings are gone. Whether or not these are acceptable is, again, unique to the individual. But they are real, and we can't know what the individual will want.
December 1, 2010 11:16 AM
Skeptitcher Rebbe said...
"Overall statistics show a different story on what males left intact will likely choose or need. The percentage of circumcision among those men is very small. That's useful for the general population."
Part of the reason that is the case is because the pain involved is tremendous for adults to undertake a circumcision. This is why mild pain in the procedure for an infact is indeed useful information since it is contrasted in relation to the same procedure on an adult where the pain is significantly higher.
When you don't circumcise an infant who grows up to be an adult who wishes to be circumcised you steal from him the opportunity to have a memoryless and significantly less painful operation to achieve the same results. In my determination the choice that a parent has to circumcise their infant son is a different choice than that an adult has to circumcise himself. He can't choose to have a memoryless, less painful procedure as an infant, that option was only available to his parents who decide whether or not to chose this option for him.
My preferences are indeed different than yours, but my preferences are as follows in decending order [circumcision as an infant(for myslef)] > [circumcision as an adult] > [No circumcision]
The likelyhood of my preferences being in line this way was, in my own opinion, rather high seeing as many children from Jewish families do wish to be a part of the Jewish community and in so doing for the most part wish to be circumcised. Their preferences would likely be close to my highest preference, of having my circumcision as an infant.
But to go even deeper parents are continually given license to decide for their children things that will permanently change and effect their children to a far greater degree than circumcision would. Very often do parents make these decisions for their children based on assumed preferences without the childs consent. Sometimes they get it wrong but many times when the parent is consientious they get it right. Why should this decision be excluded from a parent on the issue of circumcision but not on the countless other more impactful issues such as:
1) Whether or not they will grow up in a specific religious community or not.
2) Whether they will be in close contact with many relitives, like grandparents, uncles, aunts and cousins or not.
3) What type of education they will receive.
4) What (if any) musical instruments they will learn.
5) What (if any) additional languages they will learn.
6) What sort of nutrition they will receive as children.
7) Whether or not they will be immunized against various diseases.
8) Whether they will be breastfed or bottlefed.
The list can go on and on. These items permamently affect the child in a much more impactful way than circumcision, most of the time they are done without the childs consent and they are irreversable. The child grows up and is happy with some of the decisions his/her parents made on his/her behalf without his/her consent, sometimes they are unhappy. The same is easily said of circumcision. I am very happy that my parents made the decision that I could never make, to have an infant circumcision, for me.
December 1, 2010 12:44 PM
Skeptitcher Rebbe said...
Tony, a bunch of your previous comments seem very similar to one another. Did you want me to delete any of them for you.
December 1, 2010 12:51 PM
Skeptitcher Rebbe said...
I would agree with you for the most part, basically if I believed that the parents choice to circumcies was the same choice as the individuals to circumcise himself, because the significant differences in pain. If the choice was essentially the same (for example using a special dye that permamently changes your hair color) I would agree with you that this decision should not be up to the parents because the choice can just as easily be given to the child when he can consent. The choice between infant circumcision and no circumcision, and the choice between and adult circumcision and no circumcision is are significantly different choices in my determination. The person can't choose to have a circumcision as an infant.
Also I believe that the impact of having a circumcision vs not having one is minimal, greater than ear piercings no doubt, but still relatively minor compared to most of the more impactful things parents are warranted to do (and rightfully so) to their children without their consent that are also irreversable.
December 1, 2010 1:12 PM
Tony said...
Yes, please delete them. Google gave me errors for length. I waited and refreshed and nothing showed up, so I assumed they were lost. I apologize for that.
December 2, 2010 11:18 AM
Tony said...
I agree that the pain involved for adults is a reason why more intact males don't choose circumcision. That supports me. They reveal their preference for avoiding pain more than being circumcised. That's instructive. When you circumcise an infant who grows up to be an adult who wishes to be intact, you steal from him the opportunity to have his normal body and no painful operation. There are opportunity costs on both sides. But only in refraining from non-therapeutic circumcising do you allow every individual to get as close to what he wants as possible.
The problem is assuming that the pain is mild for an infant or milder than adult circumcision. We don't know how different they are, if at all. It's obvious that infants feel pain. How do they process it? Do they want that? That's not an end to the debate, but it looms much larger when the surgery is not needed. The facts that an intervention can be only mildly painful and memoryless are irrelevant. It doesn't add anything to the discussion of ethics.
It's also worth noting that adults can receive proper pain management tailored to their response and can choose how much skin to remove (and whether or not to remove the frenulum).
I concede that most Jewish males left intact would ultimately choose circumcision. I think that percentage would decrease over time, but I accept that it will be a majority for a long time. However, I can't accept that we should ignore the minority to avoid a painful choice for the majority. The majority can still get most of what they value. They also might find that their preference changes from:
[circumcision as an infant] > [circumcision as an adult] > [No circumcision]
to:
[circumcision as an infant] > [No circumcision] > [circumcision as an adult]
With infant circumcision, the minority can get none of what they value. Even on utilitarian grounds, defending circumcision doesn't work.
I think your list of options is useful. I agree, there can be a permanent effect, but that isn't guaranteed. For 1-5, those are not permanent. They can be overcome, with a caveat about the potential death of relatives with whom parents forbid contact. Nutrition and breastfeeding matter, and to a large extent, I think interference with those decisions is wrong. As long as the child is not malnourished, it's a parental decision.
The only item similar is vaccination. It's an intervention, it carries risk, and it's in essence permanent. However, vaccination deals with diseases that have few, if any, better prevention methods. Unlike circumcision and female-to-male HIV transmission, for example, a child can get measles in the course of normal social interaction. More importantly, vaccinations work with the body's natural functions to kick-start it. Circumcision for health (not really our focus) or social reasons works against the body, changing it to meet beliefs. That's the crux of where it differs and why standards for interfering with parental decision-making are different for the two.
I disagree that these permanently affect the child in a more impactful way. I was sent to church as a child. I've rejected that. (Disclosure: I'm agnostic.) I was given musical lessons for an instrument I didn't want, so I stopped when I could. As an adult, I'm now learning an instrument I like. I was raised an omnivore, and I'm now a vegan. And so on.
December 2, 2010 11:34 AM
Tony said...
(This is the second half. I'm assuming the first half will show up before this, eventually.)
I will always be circumcised. And I will always be against it for myself. It can't be overcome. You value circumcision, particularly that it was done to you as an infant. That is correct for you. But your conclusion is not mine, as I know you understand. We all have a basic right to be free from unwanted harm. A person can't choose circumcision in his infancy, but he also can't unchoose a circumcision in his infancy. That's the core fact. Until a child can offer consent, non-therapeutic circumcision is an unethical violation. Proxy consent is invalid.
There is no corresponding right to grow up* circumcised. Yes, you would have to choose it for yourself, with all of the drawbacks that go with it. Again, that's revealed preferences. It leaves the individual to evaluate and determine his own life. If you value circumcision more, you would suffer for a brief time, but you would ultimately get most of what you want. I will suffer my entire life and never get back any of what I want. I'm stuck with my parents' preference, or at least what they incorrectly assumed I'd want.
Related: On Monday, you posted Sara Bareilles' "King of Anything". Since I first heard it, that song resonated with me for a parent-child relationship, generally, and circumcision, specifically. For what that's worth...
* As I stated earlier, with any proposed prohibition on non-therapeutic circumcision of minors, the requirement should not be iron-clad on the age of majority. With the right textual protections against coercion, I'm fine with the individual's consent at whatever age he concludes he wants to be circumcised.
December 2, 2010 11:36 AM
Skeptitcher Rebbe said...
Tony,
Thank you for your well thought out and elucidative comments. I will have to chew them over a bit.
I will give you my initial reaction though. First off I think that the permanancy of all of the choices parents make in my list are in the realm of altering you in regards to your mind not your body in general. You will carry with you the connections you make as a child for the rest of your life. Sure you can learn a new language as an adult, but your mental skills will never be able to improve as much as if you had learned it as a child. I do believe that experiences you have as a child will alter your mental state for the rest of your life, either for good or for bad, and I believe a altering a persons mental state is more impactful to their life than the body altering of a circumcision.
I just simply haven't been convinced that I should universally reject this practice. I think that if I were to agree with your logic, which I think is very reasonable, I would also have to universally reject the practice of infant ear piercings (IEP). It seems to me that you wouldn't reject IEP because of the scale of harm done in your determination is not significant (correct me if I am wrong). I can't see how IEP are different than infant circumcisions in any other way. If the scale of harm done can be a determining factor in whether or not one should reject a procedure of this kind (and I think it is) then I am simply not convinced that the scale of harm is significant enough for me to oppose it. I would oppose other similar procedures whose harm I consider too significant to allow (such as cutting off a childs arm or tattooing disgusting images to a childs face) and I would not oppose practices I don't consider significantly harmful (like IEP, or a small tattoo on an inconspicuous part of an infants body assuming doing so doesn't make the child look abnormal, or circumcision).
As you said earlier:
"The remaining issue is, of course, our evaluation of the objective harm. I think the comparison to ear piercing is useful, but the difference in degree is significant"
Who gets to decide where to draw that line of where the degree of significance lies? I think it is hard to tell where it does and circumcision may be close to where that line gets hazy or it may not. I still am unsure about it being ok but I am also not convinced that it is unethical.
December 2, 2010 12:07 PM
Tony said...
"... You will carry with you the connections you make as a child for the rest of your life. ..."
I don't want to give the impression that I disagree with that. I probably did, since I was nonchalant on discarding some of my parents' decisions. I do carry the connections. We're all a collection of our experiences, not just the ones we like/choose/etc. Is it better to say "reduce the permanence" or "lessen the effect" of past parental decisions, or something like that? I still think that's different from circumcision, since I can't undo any of its effects.
Regarding IEP, I think parents shouldn't do it. It carries risk of infection. The incidence is rare but awful when it occurs. I think it treats children like dress-up dolls rather than children. Parents aren't considering that their children will one day be independent people with their own preferences. I've met women who wish their parents hadn't pierced their ears. Not many, but they exist. (Like circumcision, it should be allowed when there's consent, not the age of majority.)
As for a prohibition, it's tricky. I'd support it, and I think it's justified. But it's not a battle I'm interested in fighting, precisely because the difference between it and non-therapeutic circumcision is significant.
Drawing a line on significance is about objective facts. I think the line has both on the same side, against. If it's somewhere between the two, it's not so much about where that line is or who decides, but why it's drawn between them. Ear piercing affects a normal body part and exposes the recipient to some risk. Circumcision removes a normal body part, denying aspects of the human experience to the individual.
I respect your need to ponder our discussion and will not try to convince you further. We've hit the bulk of the discussion, anyway. I obviously hope my position will eventually convince you. Regardless, I commend you for thinking. I rarely encounter anyone who supports proxy consent for non-therapeutic circumcision who is willing to think. Most proponents already "know" everything (i.e. a subset of facts with many errors) they need to know. Thank you for being decent.
December 3, 2010 11:30 AM
Skeptitcher Rebbe said...
Tony,
I have really enjoyed all of your comments. I commend you for your consistency and I think your reasoning is totally sound. Like I said earlier I will have to dwell on this some more before I can make a decision, but you have given me a lot to think about, and who knows I may very well oppose this practice in the future. But like all things I think all people should take their time with developing their beliefs and should do so with the utmost care, which I can see you have done with your position on circumsision.
I don't think I have really anything more to say on the subject either. Again thank you for the engaging conversation and for visiting and reading my blog. I really do appreciate it and love discussing difficult issues like this with open minded, thoughtful and respectful people such as yourself.
Take care and have a wonderful winter season.
December 3, 2010 11:49 AM
Questioning Yid said...
How delightfully refreshing to see a thoughtful and respectful dialog between opposing parties on a hot-button topic that never devolved into puerile and pugnacious exchanges. Thank you both for restoring a bit of my faith in humanity and true discourse!
December 13, 2010 9:20 AM
Jasmine said...
I'm against it for a very simple reason: bodily autonomy, which I consider sacrosanct (as far as an atheist can, anyway). People (and that includes infants) have the absolute right to decide what gets done to their bodies. Since an infant obviously can't make such a decision, the only ethical procedures are critical, life-saving ones. Others must wait until they are old enough to decide on their own. Surely that's not too much to ask?
Suppose it were considered socially important to give an infant a giant facial tattoo that marks them out forever, regardless of their later wishes. What would we make of that?
With the case of the deformed ear, again we must wait. Perhaps the child will not consider it so bad after all. Perhaps in the future such things will be accepted. Perhaps in the future there will be better ways to fix it. Who knows? Not us.
I submit that parents who surgically modify their children without permission are placing their own social discomfort over the wellbeing of their child.
December 20, 2010 12:07 PM
Balboa said...
I don't think circ should be banned for adults who choose to do it for themselves. I do think parents should not have unnecessary surgeries done on infants. especially not in synagogues with parties and smiles while the infant cries for help. I relented and had it done for my son after about a month because it would have cost me my marriage and my kids didn't deserve that.
December 26, 2010 3:08 AM
Monday, November 28, 2011
Oy Oy Shabbos
Originally posted on Divrei Acher
Saturday, June 6, 2009
Link
Over Shabbos, two things got me thinking.
First, when we say during Hagbah:
וְזֹאת, הַתּוֹרָה, אֲשֶׁר-שָׂם מֹשֶׁה, לִפְנֵי בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל עַל-פִּי יְהוָה בְּיַד-מֹשֶׁה
the first part of the sentence being from Deuteronomy 4:44, and the second from Numbers 9:23, I thought: is this the best we came up with for expressing that the whole Torah was given to Moshe by God? The answer is yes, because for those who know, it doesn't state anywhere in the Chumash that God relayed all of it to Moshe, so yes, this Mishmash Posuk is the best we came up with for stating what the Torah itself is conspicuously missing. Which lead me to think: did I have to get this far to realize this. Why didn't I notice that we say this Mishmash sentence because we've got nothing better, five, ten years ago. I also knew that this is a composite Posuk, but I never thought, why, why nothing better. Unfortunately, the truth is that we usually don't think straight, especially when we're brought up to simply follow what we're taught. This is why I usually don't explain what brought me to my Apikorsus to those not familiar with the issues, and what I tell the same people when they say: do you think you're smarter than RSH"I, RMB"M or whomever. And, Ein Hachi Nami, I'm not. But in order to realize the Chulent your in, you have to look at it from outside. It only takes one peak, but that one peak makes an immeasurable difference.
The second thing was when the Rav spoke for the Aufruf there, and he asked what's the origin of the Brochoh given to the newlyweds "בית נאמן בישראל"? He answered that the source comes from Abigail who beseeched David saying: "Forgive, I pray thee, the trespass of thy handmaid;
כִּי עָשֹׂה-יַעֲשֶׂה יְהוָה לַאדֹנִי בַּיִת נֶאֱמָן for the LORD will certainly make my lord a sure house."
Now the meaning of this wish as far as I know is either that the couple should build a faithful house in Israel, meaning faithful to the Jewish faith. Or that one should have a בית נאמן a faithful household, בית taking on the meaning as in ביתו זו אשתו. The real story behind David and Abigail is actually not very veiled in the text of Shmuel, and it tells a story that is the farthest thing from faithfulness. Although he probably is correct, that the phrase originates from there, but this is a good example of projecting contemporary imagery onto very different people from the past.
POSTED BY ACHER AT 10:00 PM
=========================================
5 COMMENTS:
Baal Habos said...
Nice, nice.
But
>It only takes one peak, but that one peak makes an immeasurable difference.
I'm not sure about that. It takes lots of peaks, but there is the peak that breaks the camel's back.
JUNE 7, 2009 8:16 AM
Acher said...
True, I was referring to that one all important peek, the one that breaks the camels back. In my life, it was the foray into biblical criticism, and it was that one peak, more than any other one thing.
JUNE 7, 2009 12:04 PM
Avi said...
Please dont make me think about it. It's too depressing....Avi
JUNE 11, 2009 2:40 PM
He Who Fights Monsters said...
Let me put it to you this way:
What's more troubling - that evidence of Noah's flood doesn't seem to exist, or that the flood story was imported from Sumerian mythology?
JUNE 14, 2009 2:40 AM
Acher said...
I don't understand why either would be troubling, it's not a personal matter, it's a question of historical accuracy.
JUNE 16, 2009 2:01 PM
Saturday, June 6, 2009
Link
Over Shabbos, two things got me thinking.
First, when we say during Hagbah:
וְזֹאת, הַתּוֹרָה, אֲשֶׁר-שָׂם מֹשֶׁה, לִפְנֵי בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל עַל-פִּי יְהוָה בְּיַד-מֹשֶׁה
the first part of the sentence being from Deuteronomy 4:44, and the second from Numbers 9:23, I thought: is this the best we came up with for expressing that the whole Torah was given to Moshe by God? The answer is yes, because for those who know, it doesn't state anywhere in the Chumash that God relayed all of it to Moshe, so yes, this Mishmash Posuk is the best we came up with for stating what the Torah itself is conspicuously missing. Which lead me to think: did I have to get this far to realize this. Why didn't I notice that we say this Mishmash sentence because we've got nothing better, five, ten years ago. I also knew that this is a composite Posuk, but I never thought, why, why nothing better. Unfortunately, the truth is that we usually don't think straight, especially when we're brought up to simply follow what we're taught. This is why I usually don't explain what brought me to my Apikorsus to those not familiar with the issues, and what I tell the same people when they say: do you think you're smarter than RSH"I, RMB"M or whomever. And, Ein Hachi Nami, I'm not. But in order to realize the Chulent your in, you have to look at it from outside. It only takes one peak, but that one peak makes an immeasurable difference.
The second thing was when the Rav spoke for the Aufruf there, and he asked what's the origin of the Brochoh given to the newlyweds "בית נאמן בישראל"? He answered that the source comes from Abigail who beseeched David saying: "Forgive, I pray thee, the trespass of thy handmaid;
כִּי עָשֹׂה-יַעֲשֶׂה יְהוָה לַאדֹנִי בַּיִת נֶאֱמָן for the LORD will certainly make my lord a sure house."
Now the meaning of this wish as far as I know is either that the couple should build a faithful house in Israel, meaning faithful to the Jewish faith. Or that one should have a בית נאמן a faithful household, בית taking on the meaning as in ביתו זו אשתו. The real story behind David and Abigail is actually not very veiled in the text of Shmuel, and it tells a story that is the farthest thing from faithfulness. Although he probably is correct, that the phrase originates from there, but this is a good example of projecting contemporary imagery onto very different people from the past.
POSTED BY ACHER AT 10:00 PM
=========================================
5 COMMENTS:
Baal Habos said...
Nice, nice.
But
>It only takes one peak, but that one peak makes an immeasurable difference.
I'm not sure about that. It takes lots of peaks, but there is the peak that breaks the camel's back.
JUNE 7, 2009 8:16 AM
Acher said...
True, I was referring to that one all important peek, the one that breaks the camels back. In my life, it was the foray into biblical criticism, and it was that one peak, more than any other one thing.
JUNE 7, 2009 12:04 PM
Avi said...
Please dont make me think about it. It's too depressing....Avi
JUNE 11, 2009 2:40 PM
He Who Fights Monsters said...
Let me put it to you this way:
What's more troubling - that evidence of Noah's flood doesn't seem to exist, or that the flood story was imported from Sumerian mythology?
JUNE 14, 2009 2:40 AM
Acher said...
I don't understand why either would be troubling, it's not a personal matter, it's a question of historical accuracy.
JUNE 16, 2009 2:01 PM
Hechsher on What??
Originally posted on Divrei Acher
Friday, May 7, 2010
Link
We've come beyond the threshold of absurdity even for Charedi shenanigans. It seems that it has become Assuer to own any stocks, lest they be involved in Chillul Shabbos or other Halacha compromising activities.
http://www.vosizneias.com/54954/2010/05/06/tel-aviv-badatz-new-ruling-forbids-charedim-to-invest-in-any-stocks
But wait! This is not all. The Gedoilim always have a Refuah Kodem L'Makoh. So there are Hechsherim for ETFs and bonds etc.
And so the contest is on! Who can correctly predict the next thing to be Assur. The winner gets to monopolize the Hechsher ensuing from that Issur.
POSTED BY ACHER AT 12:34 AM
====================================
6 COMMENTS:
G*3 said...
That's brilliant. I wish I'd thought of it.
It just goes to show, even in a down economy there are opportunities for those who think outside the box.
MAY 7, 2010 12:51 AM
Undercover Kofer said...
Maybe this will allow people from the Eidah Charedis to get some higher education (Business MA or so) in order to give out hech-share-im ;)
MAY 7, 2010 3:24 AM
Baal Habos said...
Whiskey?
http://yudelstake.blogspot.com/2010/05/alert-no-whisky-should-be-used-without.html
MAY 7, 2010 2:44 PM
Acher said...
BHB,
Presto, grab the lead in this market before it's too late, it could be a lucrative opportunity.... just look at Kedem's strong arm tactics..... they can def bve applied tp the whiskey business as well....
MAY 7, 2010 5:22 PM
Lady-Light said...
או-או-שכחתי להחליף מעברית לאנגלית
Sorry about that.
Here's a good one: having a label on fish or chicken (or for that matter, matzah meal) which says "glatt."
The word has come to mean "mehadrin meha-mehadrin," not 'smooth' in lung-checking, as it originally meant.
Go figure: it's the chumra of the week club.
OCTOBER 1, 2010 3:57 PM
Friday, May 7, 2010
Link
We've come beyond the threshold of absurdity even for Charedi shenanigans. It seems that it has become Assuer to own any stocks, lest they be involved in Chillul Shabbos or other Halacha compromising activities.
http://www.vosizneias.com/54954/2010/05/06/tel-aviv-badatz-new-ruling-forbids-charedim-to-invest-in-any-stocks
But wait! This is not all. The Gedoilim always have a Refuah Kodem L'Makoh. So there are Hechsherim for ETFs and bonds etc.
And so the contest is on! Who can correctly predict the next thing to be Assur. The winner gets to monopolize the Hechsher ensuing from that Issur.
POSTED BY ACHER AT 12:34 AM
====================================
6 COMMENTS:
G*3 said...
That's brilliant. I wish I'd thought of it.
It just goes to show, even in a down economy there are opportunities for those who think outside the box.
MAY 7, 2010 12:51 AM
Undercover Kofer said...
Maybe this will allow people from the Eidah Charedis to get some higher education (Business MA or so) in order to give out hech-share-im ;)
MAY 7, 2010 3:24 AM
Baal Habos said...
Whiskey?
http://yudelstake.blogspot.com/2010/05/alert-no-whisky-should-be-used-without.html
MAY 7, 2010 2:44 PM
Acher said...
BHB,
Presto, grab the lead in this market before it's too late, it could be a lucrative opportunity.... just look at Kedem's strong arm tactics..... they can def bve applied tp the whiskey business as well....
MAY 7, 2010 5:22 PM
Lady-Light said...
או-או-שכחתי להחליף מעברית לאנגלית
Sorry about that.
Here's a good one: having a label on fish or chicken (or for that matter, matzah meal) which says "glatt."
The word has come to mean "mehadrin meha-mehadrin," not 'smooth' in lung-checking, as it originally meant.
Go figure: it's the chumra of the week club.
OCTOBER 1, 2010 3:57 PM
Kefira - Like a hole in the head
Originally posted on Baal Habos
20 JUNE 2006
http://baalhabos.blogspot.com/2006_06_01_archive.html
I once had a rebbi in Beis Medrash, who often stated that Kefira Material, anything that contradicts the Torah, is like a hole in the head. Get exposed to it, even accidentally, and you've damaged your brain with a tiny hole, spiritually speaking that is. Do it often enough and you've got hundreds of holes; effectively you're damaged goods. Not that the Torah is false (CH"VSH), just that you as an individual are no longer capable of resisting the falsehoods of the world.
I knew instantly that he was right. When I was a mere stripling of 12, I took out this interesting looking book from the library, "God is an astronaut". It tries to demonstrate thru various events in Tanach, that God, as we experienced him, was really an astronaut from another planet. For example, the desciption of the Chayos in the Maase Merkava could resemble a spacecraft. Layouts of the pyramid were really landmarks for alien aircraft. Ancient roads were landing strips for aircraft. The deaths of Nadav & Avihu Bhakrivam aish zara was due to electricity. That's how there were "burnt" without any external markings. There were hundreds of interesting tidbits like that, most of which I can't remember the details. It is considered a flawed work of pseudo science, but it makes for fascinating reading.
I felt this was gibberish, but it always left a slight impact on me that maybe what happened back in bibilical times was really the result of an encounter with a more sophisticated culture.
Later, personal encounters by me with real science and history was more than enought to leave me with serious doubt as to the accuracy of Torah Misinai as we know it.
This brings me to individuals like Lakewood Yid, Chardal and others who hang around GH blog. I just can't see how they can escape the Kefira holes that my Rebbi warned me of. I wish them lots of luck, cause they'll need it.
================================================================
29 Comments
Close this window Jump to comment form
The back of the hill said...
Ah, the conflict between truth and fact.
It's all true. But none of it is factual.
June 20, 2006 2:03 PM
Baal Habos said...
Welcome back, BOTH.
> It's all true.
Yes, thats what the mean by Torah True Judaism.
June 20, 2006 2:21 PM
Avi said...
So what is the problem? They will have so many holes in their brain, that they will become holy. Isent that what they want? Avi
June 20, 2006 3:46 PM
Baal Habos said...
Avi, very cute! (and ain't that the whole truth).
June 20, 2006 5:27 PM
Moshe Kappoya said...
BH,
I've come to the same conclusion, which why I feel I must say goodbye.
Hatzlocha!
June 20, 2006 5:33 PM
Baal Habos said...
MK, if you're a maamin, then please do yourself a favor and stay away.
June 20, 2006 5:38 PM
Moshe Kappoya said...
BH,
My soul weeps for you.
A short personal anecdote if I may.
When in my teens, I rebelled against my religious upbringing and began to "slip away". Not long after, my uncle passed away on Yom Kippur. At the funeral another uncle told this story about the deceased.
During WWII when the Nazis ym"s occupied Hungary he decided to "hide" amongst the goyim there. Being a wealthy man, he was able to dress the part of a "gentleman" and move about the town freely. One day he met a shiksa that recognized him. She told him that if he did not marry her, she would report him to the Nazis. He refused and was deported to one of the camps. He survived and eventually came to NY.
After hearing this I thought to myself, here was a man who could have lived very comfortably, but instead choose to go through hell rather then betray his religion. And so too for the past 2000 years my ancestors have willingly submitted to torture and death to stay true to Hashem's Torah. And I was going to be the SOB to break the chain?!?
I will pray that you find your way back.
June 22, 2006 10:32 AM
Baal Habos said...
MK, Thanks.
My soul weeps for me as well. However, I'm not breaking any chains or Halacha. Except possibly belief. Nuch 120, if God takes me to task for that, I can't help that. I can only control my actions. The Gemara Said Lo uvdo Avoda Zara ella Lhatir Lahem aroyos. I haven't been matir any Arayos.
That being said, past ancestral or personal sacrifice is not reason to have emuna either. It may appeal to your emotions but it does not follow logically.
During early Christianity days, Christians were thrown to the lions by the Romans for being Christian. That doesn't prove the Christians are correct, right?
What was it in your teens that led you to rebel? Intellectual or Emotional reasons? I'm willing to bet it was emotional, i.e. friends, taava, bad teacher , etc.
That's very typical of teenagers and adults as well.
I think you are making emotional decisions, which is not necessarily bad. You'll certainly have a clear conscience as it relates to Yiddishkeit.
June 22, 2006 12:24 PM
Moshe Kappoya said...
However, I'm not breaking any chains or Halacha. Except possibly belief. Nuch 120, if God takes me to task for that, I can't help that. I can only control my actions.
I think you may not realize the severity of denying one of the 13 ikrim. And yes, we are expected to control our thoughts and desires. Remember "Lo Sachmod"?
As for myself, yes initially it was an emotional decision. But I can honsetly say that today I believe because it is obvious to me.
With faith, there are no questions; without faith, there are no answers.
Yisroel Meir Hakohen (1838-1933)
June 22, 2006 3:16 PM
Baal Habos said...
MK, Firstly the 13 Ikkarim are debatable. I even heard my Rav say it; he's a regular Chareidi Rav who is quite well known. There are other versions such as 7 Ikkarim or 3 Ikkarim or possibly even one Ikkar. These were promulgated by other Rishonim. It's just the Rambam's Ikkarim became well known. Secondly, a requirement to "believe" just makes no sense. What if you don't? You can't be forced to believe something if you don't.
If I tell you that you must believe the sky is green, you only believe it it you believe.
You can profess belief, but that doesn't mean you do.
I tried to pre-empt some of this in my comment to you before about Lo Uvdo Avoda Zara.
This is a famous kashia, how can one be forced to believe. In yeshiva we learned that really everyone believes but they fool themselves into not believing because they really don't want to believe in order to be Matir Arayos.
Well there are many who have lots of doubt and would wish that it were true, yet still are not Matir Arayos. etc.
> Remember "Lo Sachmod"?
Agreed, once you believe then controlling your desires and envies is do-able.
> With faith, there are no questions; without faith, there are no answers.
Possibly, but that doesn't mean the faith is true either. The same motto can be said of other religions.
Hmmmm. I would have hoped that I'd attract other people in by boat. I'm not looking to try to convince believers of anything. But I'll gladly defend my skepticism to anyone.
June 22, 2006 5:04 PM
Moshe Kappoya said...
FYI,
I think you'll find this interesting...
http://hassid.blogspot.com/2005/10/end.html
June 23, 2006 1:39 PM
Baal Habos said...
I read it and it does not do much for me. I really don't feel I need to do any teshuva for many reasons. At least not any more than your typical Baal Habos needs to do Teshuva.
An interesting point though is Mitoch Shlo Lshmuh. It does say about Torah, Meoros Shebah Machzirin Lmutav - As long as you're not learning Lekantair.
And I believe thats true, the more you learn the more "religious" you will be. That's no different than someone who reads science books all day, will become more intellectual.
There was a period when I recognized that I was learning exactly Lekantair. So for around 4 years I stopped learning. I'm over that now and I'm back to a daily dose of learning. At least it keeps me connected.
So tell me, how wacky is that for someone who pretty convinced about the non historicity of TMS ?
Good Shabbos.
June 23, 2006 4:20 PM
Pinchas Giller said...
The "kefirah holes" sounds close to R. Nachman Breslaver's famous "Torah of the Void" (Likkutei Moharan 64); the astronaut thing sounds like Erikh Von Danekin's "Chariots of the Gods."
This all must have filtered down to you wherever you were.
It seems that the frum world is very 2 dimensional and shies away from complexity or paradox in the objects of their belief.
You said:
"..serious doubt as to the accuracy of Torah MiSinai as we know it."
But maybe you knew it with insufficient subtlety.
June 27, 2006 1:18 AM
Baal Habos said...
Pinchas,
You are possibly correct about the book being Chariots of the Gods. When I wrote this post, I went looking searching for a book entitled God is an Astronaut and came up empty. But, thats the title as I remember "reading it" many years ago, so that's what I went with.
The other incident are verbatim words from a revered recently deceased Litvishe Maggid shiur.
I don't think R' Breslav or Von Daniken's neccesarilly had copyrights on their respective ideas.
No subtlety? That's funny.
Anyhow, what I find realy interesting, is that commenters often post on ancillary issues, somehow missing the point of the post. Maybe it's my writing. Or possibly, if I re-arrange your sentences, your'e disagreeing with the Kefira holes issue by saying that people should be able to live with the dichotomy of ideas. Well, I tell you that LY does not live with the dichotomy, because he simply rejects science and anything that threatens to conflict with with cocoon. Which is not bad. But one day, something may crack and he'll really be in deep doo-doo.
I'll post about subtlety in the future.
June 27, 2006 9:02 AM
PInchas Giller said...
No, all I meant was that Torah mi-Sinai may be more complex, in its reality, than the simplistic view. And, I apologize, when I said "you" I meant the 2nd person plural, as in Torah mi-Sinai as taught to the masses. I think that the idea is full of mysteries and paradoxes, myself.
And your writing is quite fine, it is my thought processes that are erratic.
There was a point, in the popular culture, when there was a theme that Aliens were going to come & bequeath humankind with knowledge. "Close encounters," "ET" it was even parodied by Woody Allen. Lately the aliens in movies all seem to be malevolent. It's a nastier decade.
June 27, 2006 8:23 PM
Baal Habos said...
Pinchas, no apologies necessary either way. Unfortunately my upbringing (chareidi-lite)does not really provide for a complex TMS. And true Chareidi has no leeway at all.
See any good movies lately? I can't even recall the last time we (the wife & I) went to a movie or even rented something. I settle for Seinfeld reruns and borrowed Sopranos. IMO, The early Sopranos were the best thing out on the tube. Ever.
June 27, 2006 11:12 PM
lakewoodyid said...
BHB,
Please explain:
Da Mah She'tashiv L'apikores.
June 28, 2006 11:48 PM
Anonymous said...
my intention was the first words not the last word
June 29, 2006 1:05 AM
Baal Habos said...
> Da Mah She'tashiv L'apikores.
LY, it certainly does not mean going surfing the web LOOKING for apikorsim.
You have strayed from your own characterization of your blogging as defending anti Chareidi posting. Now you're doing mundane postings about Flip Flops in shul. Your web charisma is carrying you away.
June 29, 2006 9:53 AM
Baal Habos said...
> Anonymous said...
my intention was the first words not the last word
Anon, sorry, I don't know who you are and what you're referring to.
June 29, 2006 9:56 AM
lakewoodyid said...
>LY, it certainly does not mean going surfing the web LOOKING for apikorsim.
You're avoiding my question. You said Kefirah make spiritual holes in the brain.
The Mishna says we should know what to answer. We can only answer if we read their position.
How could the Mishna allow it if it creates holes?
(Hint, see the mefarshim on the mishna in Avos perek 2)
June 29, 2006 12:21 PM
lakewoodyid said...
>> Anonymous said...
my intention was the first words not the last word
>Anon, sorry, I don't know who you are and what you're referring to.
Sorry about that one. Blogging from a treo is a pain.
I was simply trying to say that although I quoted the Mishna - "L'apikores", I was not refering that term on anyone.
June 29, 2006 12:23 PM
lakewoodyid said...
>Now you're doing mundane postings about Flip Flops in shul. Your web charisma is carrying you away.
I'm fully entitled to express my right wing views. As much as your entitled to express your doubts.
And standing before God "nisht koveh'dig" is not a mundane matter to me.
June 29, 2006 12:38 PM
Baal Habos said...
LY,
> How could the Mishna allow it if it creates holes?
That was not my Vort, it was from a very chushoov Maggid Shiur. I will try to research it the Inyun. I sincerely doubt it means actively engage in conversation with Apikorsim unless forced into it. It probably means Study Tanach and Gemora well so in case you get into the position where you are forced to confront an Apikores you will know how to respond.
Yes, you certainly are entitled to blog on what you wish, but I remember you saying your charter is to defend against anti-chared sentiment, right?
June 29, 2006 3:21 PM
lakewoodyid said...
>Yes, you certainly are entitled to blog on what you wish, but I remember you saying your charter is to defend against anti-chared sentiment, right?
Gotta sometimes take offence too.
June 29, 2006 5:30 PM
Baal Habos said...
> Gotta sometimes take offence too.
LY, as long as you don't
"take offence" :)
Good Shabbos.
June 29, 2006 11:42 PM
happywithhislot said...
BHB
Many people believe orthodoxy is the only way to preserve the jews.
I agree.
That doesnt mean that privately you cant have brain.
I think youre accomplishing both.
Youre saving orthodoxy, and saving your brain.
Double schar.
Hashem gave us sechel and rabboonim.
Those two are mutually exclusive a lot of the times.
I believe they are becuase when you make the leap to all faith, you have no sechel. Its not a bad thing. We need our standard bearers. Doesnt mean they arent smart or wise.
July 07, 2006 1:27 PM
20 JUNE 2006
http://baalhabos.blogspot.com/2006_06_01_archive.html
I once had a rebbi in Beis Medrash, who often stated that Kefira Material, anything that contradicts the Torah, is like a hole in the head. Get exposed to it, even accidentally, and you've damaged your brain with a tiny hole, spiritually speaking that is. Do it often enough and you've got hundreds of holes; effectively you're damaged goods. Not that the Torah is false (CH"VSH), just that you as an individual are no longer capable of resisting the falsehoods of the world.
I knew instantly that he was right. When I was a mere stripling of 12, I took out this interesting looking book from the library, "God is an astronaut". It tries to demonstrate thru various events in Tanach, that God, as we experienced him, was really an astronaut from another planet. For example, the desciption of the Chayos in the Maase Merkava could resemble a spacecraft. Layouts of the pyramid were really landmarks for alien aircraft. Ancient roads were landing strips for aircraft. The deaths of Nadav & Avihu Bhakrivam aish zara was due to electricity. That's how there were "burnt" without any external markings. There were hundreds of interesting tidbits like that, most of which I can't remember the details. It is considered a flawed work of pseudo science, but it makes for fascinating reading.
I felt this was gibberish, but it always left a slight impact on me that maybe what happened back in bibilical times was really the result of an encounter with a more sophisticated culture.
Later, personal encounters by me with real science and history was more than enought to leave me with serious doubt as to the accuracy of Torah Misinai as we know it.
This brings me to individuals like Lakewood Yid, Chardal and others who hang around GH blog. I just can't see how they can escape the Kefira holes that my Rebbi warned me of. I wish them lots of luck, cause they'll need it.
================================================================
29 Comments
Close this window Jump to comment form
The back of the hill said...
Ah, the conflict between truth and fact.
It's all true. But none of it is factual.
June 20, 2006 2:03 PM
Baal Habos said...
Welcome back, BOTH.
> It's all true.
Yes, thats what the mean by Torah True Judaism.
June 20, 2006 2:21 PM
Avi said...
So what is the problem? They will have so many holes in their brain, that they will become holy. Isent that what they want? Avi
June 20, 2006 3:46 PM
Baal Habos said...
Avi, very cute! (and ain't that the whole truth).
June 20, 2006 5:27 PM
Moshe Kappoya said...
BH,
I've come to the same conclusion, which why I feel I must say goodbye.
Hatzlocha!
June 20, 2006 5:33 PM
Baal Habos said...
MK, if you're a maamin, then please do yourself a favor and stay away.
June 20, 2006 5:38 PM
Moshe Kappoya said...
BH,
My soul weeps for you.
A short personal anecdote if I may.
When in my teens, I rebelled against my religious upbringing and began to "slip away". Not long after, my uncle passed away on Yom Kippur. At the funeral another uncle told this story about the deceased.
During WWII when the Nazis ym"s occupied Hungary he decided to "hide" amongst the goyim there. Being a wealthy man, he was able to dress the part of a "gentleman" and move about the town freely. One day he met a shiksa that recognized him. She told him that if he did not marry her, she would report him to the Nazis. He refused and was deported to one of the camps. He survived and eventually came to NY.
After hearing this I thought to myself, here was a man who could have lived very comfortably, but instead choose to go through hell rather then betray his religion. And so too for the past 2000 years my ancestors have willingly submitted to torture and death to stay true to Hashem's Torah. And I was going to be the SOB to break the chain?!?
I will pray that you find your way back.
June 22, 2006 10:32 AM
Baal Habos said...
MK, Thanks.
My soul weeps for me as well. However, I'm not breaking any chains or Halacha. Except possibly belief. Nuch 120, if God takes me to task for that, I can't help that. I can only control my actions. The Gemara Said Lo uvdo Avoda Zara ella Lhatir Lahem aroyos. I haven't been matir any Arayos.
That being said, past ancestral or personal sacrifice is not reason to have emuna either. It may appeal to your emotions but it does not follow logically.
During early Christianity days, Christians were thrown to the lions by the Romans for being Christian. That doesn't prove the Christians are correct, right?
What was it in your teens that led you to rebel? Intellectual or Emotional reasons? I'm willing to bet it was emotional, i.e. friends, taava, bad teacher , etc.
That's very typical of teenagers and adults as well.
I think you are making emotional decisions, which is not necessarily bad. You'll certainly have a clear conscience as it relates to Yiddishkeit.
June 22, 2006 12:24 PM
Moshe Kappoya said...
However, I'm not breaking any chains or Halacha. Except possibly belief. Nuch 120, if God takes me to task for that, I can't help that. I can only control my actions.
I think you may not realize the severity of denying one of the 13 ikrim. And yes, we are expected to control our thoughts and desires. Remember "Lo Sachmod"?
As for myself, yes initially it was an emotional decision. But I can honsetly say that today I believe because it is obvious to me.
With faith, there are no questions; without faith, there are no answers.
Yisroel Meir Hakohen (1838-1933)
June 22, 2006 3:16 PM
Baal Habos said...
MK, Firstly the 13 Ikkarim are debatable. I even heard my Rav say it; he's a regular Chareidi Rav who is quite well known. There are other versions such as 7 Ikkarim or 3 Ikkarim or possibly even one Ikkar. These were promulgated by other Rishonim. It's just the Rambam's Ikkarim became well known. Secondly, a requirement to "believe" just makes no sense. What if you don't? You can't be forced to believe something if you don't.
If I tell you that you must believe the sky is green, you only believe it it you believe.
You can profess belief, but that doesn't mean you do.
I tried to pre-empt some of this in my comment to you before about Lo Uvdo Avoda Zara.
This is a famous kashia, how can one be forced to believe. In yeshiva we learned that really everyone believes but they fool themselves into not believing because they really don't want to believe in order to be Matir Arayos.
Well there are many who have lots of doubt and would wish that it were true, yet still are not Matir Arayos. etc.
> Remember "Lo Sachmod"?
Agreed, once you believe then controlling your desires and envies is do-able.
> With faith, there are no questions; without faith, there are no answers.
Possibly, but that doesn't mean the faith is true either. The same motto can be said of other religions.
Hmmmm. I would have hoped that I'd attract other people in by boat. I'm not looking to try to convince believers of anything. But I'll gladly defend my skepticism to anyone.
June 22, 2006 5:04 PM
Moshe Kappoya said...
FYI,
I think you'll find this interesting...
http://hassid.blogspot.com/2005/10/end.html
June 23, 2006 1:39 PM
Baal Habos said...
I read it and it does not do much for me. I really don't feel I need to do any teshuva for many reasons. At least not any more than your typical Baal Habos needs to do Teshuva.
An interesting point though is Mitoch Shlo Lshmuh. It does say about Torah, Meoros Shebah Machzirin Lmutav - As long as you're not learning Lekantair.
And I believe thats true, the more you learn the more "religious" you will be. That's no different than someone who reads science books all day, will become more intellectual.
There was a period when I recognized that I was learning exactly Lekantair. So for around 4 years I stopped learning. I'm over that now and I'm back to a daily dose of learning. At least it keeps me connected.
So tell me, how wacky is that for someone who pretty convinced about the non historicity of TMS ?
Good Shabbos.
June 23, 2006 4:20 PM
Pinchas Giller said...
The "kefirah holes" sounds close to R. Nachman Breslaver's famous "Torah of the Void" (Likkutei Moharan 64); the astronaut thing sounds like Erikh Von Danekin's "Chariots of the Gods."
This all must have filtered down to you wherever you were.
It seems that the frum world is very 2 dimensional and shies away from complexity or paradox in the objects of their belief.
You said:
"..serious doubt as to the accuracy of Torah MiSinai as we know it."
But maybe you knew it with insufficient subtlety.
June 27, 2006 1:18 AM
Baal Habos said...
Pinchas,
You are possibly correct about the book being Chariots of the Gods. When I wrote this post, I went looking searching for a book entitled God is an Astronaut and came up empty. But, thats the title as I remember "reading it" many years ago, so that's what I went with.
The other incident are verbatim words from a revered recently deceased Litvishe Maggid shiur.
I don't think R' Breslav or Von Daniken's neccesarilly had copyrights on their respective ideas.
No subtlety? That's funny.
Anyhow, what I find realy interesting, is that commenters often post on ancillary issues, somehow missing the point of the post. Maybe it's my writing. Or possibly, if I re-arrange your sentences, your'e disagreeing with the Kefira holes issue by saying that people should be able to live with the dichotomy of ideas. Well, I tell you that LY does not live with the dichotomy, because he simply rejects science and anything that threatens to conflict with with cocoon. Which is not bad. But one day, something may crack and he'll really be in deep doo-doo.
I'll post about subtlety in the future.
June 27, 2006 9:02 AM
PInchas Giller said...
No, all I meant was that Torah mi-Sinai may be more complex, in its reality, than the simplistic view. And, I apologize, when I said "you" I meant the 2nd person plural, as in Torah mi-Sinai as taught to the masses. I think that the idea is full of mysteries and paradoxes, myself.
And your writing is quite fine, it is my thought processes that are erratic.
There was a point, in the popular culture, when there was a theme that Aliens were going to come & bequeath humankind with knowledge. "Close encounters," "ET" it was even parodied by Woody Allen. Lately the aliens in movies all seem to be malevolent. It's a nastier decade.
June 27, 2006 8:23 PM
Baal Habos said...
Pinchas, no apologies necessary either way. Unfortunately my upbringing (chareidi-lite)does not really provide for a complex TMS. And true Chareidi has no leeway at all.
See any good movies lately? I can't even recall the last time we (the wife & I) went to a movie or even rented something. I settle for Seinfeld reruns and borrowed Sopranos. IMO, The early Sopranos were the best thing out on the tube. Ever.
June 27, 2006 11:12 PM
lakewoodyid said...
BHB,
Please explain:
Da Mah She'tashiv L'apikores.
June 28, 2006 11:48 PM
Anonymous said...
my intention was the first words not the last word
June 29, 2006 1:05 AM
Baal Habos said...
> Da Mah She'tashiv L'apikores.
LY, it certainly does not mean going surfing the web LOOKING for apikorsim.
You have strayed from your own characterization of your blogging as defending anti Chareidi posting. Now you're doing mundane postings about Flip Flops in shul. Your web charisma is carrying you away.
June 29, 2006 9:53 AM
Baal Habos said...
> Anonymous said...
my intention was the first words not the last word
Anon, sorry, I don't know who you are and what you're referring to.
June 29, 2006 9:56 AM
lakewoodyid said...
>LY, it certainly does not mean going surfing the web LOOKING for apikorsim.
You're avoiding my question. You said Kefirah make spiritual holes in the brain.
The Mishna says we should know what to answer. We can only answer if we read their position.
How could the Mishna allow it if it creates holes?
(Hint, see the mefarshim on the mishna in Avos perek 2)
June 29, 2006 12:21 PM
lakewoodyid said...
>> Anonymous said...
my intention was the first words not the last word
>Anon, sorry, I don't know who you are and what you're referring to.
Sorry about that one. Blogging from a treo is a pain.
I was simply trying to say that although I quoted the Mishna - "L'apikores", I was not refering that term on anyone.
June 29, 2006 12:23 PM
lakewoodyid said...
>Now you're doing mundane postings about Flip Flops in shul. Your web charisma is carrying you away.
I'm fully entitled to express my right wing views. As much as your entitled to express your doubts.
And standing before God "nisht koveh'dig" is not a mundane matter to me.
June 29, 2006 12:38 PM
Baal Habos said...
LY,
> How could the Mishna allow it if it creates holes?
That was not my Vort, it was from a very chushoov Maggid Shiur. I will try to research it the Inyun. I sincerely doubt it means actively engage in conversation with Apikorsim unless forced into it. It probably means Study Tanach and Gemora well so in case you get into the position where you are forced to confront an Apikores you will know how to respond.
Yes, you certainly are entitled to blog on what you wish, but I remember you saying your charter is to defend against anti-chared sentiment, right?
June 29, 2006 3:21 PM
lakewoodyid said...
>Yes, you certainly are entitled to blog on what you wish, but I remember you saying your charter is to defend against anti-chared sentiment, right?
Gotta sometimes take offence too.
June 29, 2006 5:30 PM
Baal Habos said...
> Gotta sometimes take offence too.
LY, as long as you don't
"take offence" :)
Good Shabbos.
June 29, 2006 11:42 PM
happywithhislot said...
BHB
Many people believe orthodoxy is the only way to preserve the jews.
I agree.
That doesnt mean that privately you cant have brain.
I think youre accomplishing both.
Youre saving orthodoxy, and saving your brain.
Double schar.
Hashem gave us sechel and rabboonim.
Those two are mutually exclusive a lot of the times.
I believe they are becuase when you make the leap to all faith, you have no sechel. Its not a bad thing. We need our standard bearers. Doesnt mean they arent smart or wise.
July 07, 2006 1:27 PM
You Skeptics think you're so smart!
Originally posted on Baal Habos
08 MARCH 2009
http://baalhabos.blogspot.com/2009_03_01_archive.html
Or some other variant thereof.
Such as "And you know better than all the Gedolim??!"
Rabbi Gil Student states here
You think you're the smartest and most unbiased person on the planet. That may or may not be so, but I'm not going to set aside my judgment for yours.
It happens to be that I did grow thinking I was smart. After all I overheard my mother telling a friend, "My little BHB must be brilliant, he got a 95 on his IQ Test!"
Well, as it turns out for once the believers got it right. The Gedolim are way smarter than us skeptics.
Michael Shermer tells us about Planck's Problem, after physicist Max Planck, who made this observation on what must happen for innovation to occur in science: "
An important scientific innovation rarely makes its way by gradually winning over and converting its opponents: it rarely happens that Saul becomes Paul. What does happen is that its opponents gradually die out and that the growing generation is familiarized with the idea from the beginning"
And he states further :
Psychologist David Perkins conducted an interesting correlational study in which he found a strong positive correlation between intelligence (measured by a standard IQ test) and the ability to give reasons for taking a point of view and defending that position; he also found a strong negative correlation between intelligence and the ability to consider other alternatives. That is, the higher the IQ, the greater the potential for ideological immunity. Ideological immunity is built into the scientific enterprise, where it functions as a filter against potentially overwhelming novelty."
It seems it's the smart ones who are able to cook up all sorts of tangled and intricate answers to defend their existing positions. It's the smart ones who are able to create Toras Lukshin to avoid confronting new truths
So, Rabboisai, there you have it. I agree, I'm NOT so smart after all.
A freilichen Purim.
08 MARCH 2009
http://baalhabos.blogspot.com/2009_03_01_archive.html
Or some other variant thereof.
Such as "And you know better than all the Gedolim??!"
Rabbi Gil Student states here
You think you're the smartest and most unbiased person on the planet. That may or may not be so, but I'm not going to set aside my judgment for yours.
It happens to be that I did grow thinking I was smart. After all I overheard my mother telling a friend, "My little BHB must be brilliant, he got a 95 on his IQ Test!"
Well, as it turns out for once the believers got it right. The Gedolim are way smarter than us skeptics.
Michael Shermer tells us about Planck's Problem, after physicist Max Planck, who made this observation on what must happen for innovation to occur in science: "
An important scientific innovation rarely makes its way by gradually winning over and converting its opponents: it rarely happens that Saul becomes Paul. What does happen is that its opponents gradually die out and that the growing generation is familiarized with the idea from the beginning"
And he states further :
Psychologist David Perkins conducted an interesting correlational study in which he found a strong positive correlation between intelligence (measured by a standard IQ test) and the ability to give reasons for taking a point of view and defending that position; he also found a strong negative correlation between intelligence and the ability to consider other alternatives. That is, the higher the IQ, the greater the potential for ideological immunity. Ideological immunity is built into the scientific enterprise, where it functions as a filter against potentially overwhelming novelty."
It seems it's the smart ones who are able to cook up all sorts of tangled and intricate answers to defend their existing positions. It's the smart ones who are able to create Toras Lukshin to avoid confronting new truths
So, Rabboisai, there you have it. I agree, I'm NOT so smart after all.
A freilichen Purim.
Sunday, October 9, 2011
I love my Wife!
Originally posted on The Skeptitcher Rebbe
Thursday, November 4, 2010
Link
My wife is the best. I just can't get over how damn lucky I am to have her. I know that changing your worldview from frumkeit is hard and can be very depressing, but for me so far I have been able to handle it pretty well because of her.
She is still frum and doesn't yet know that my view points on Yiddishkeit and religion in general have changed so drastically, but when I speak to her about more OTD type topics she is always very understanding and insightful. She always thinks her views through and never falls back into some of the nonsensical arguments I hear from many frummies.
Not only that but many times she comes home with her own complaints and criticisms of Yiddishkeit. They are honest criticisms and although she tries to see it from anothers perspective, if it is ridiculous she points it out and isn't afraid to challenge it. She is intelligent, thoughtful, determined, caring, understanding, nurturing, dedicated and extremly beautiful.
I am reminded of a time earlier in my life while I was beginning to become frum. It came to the point where I desperately wanted to be seperated from her since she wasn't Jewish at the time and wasn't really interested in an Orthodox conversion. It was very hard for us, and I didn't want to deal with the stress of it, especially knowing I was sinning by dating a non Jew. We ended up breaking up for a couple of months before we got back together again. I just keep wondering what would have happened had I met and married another girl, maybe FFB or something. I couldn't imagine what a mistake that would have been.
I was such a moron for even putting her through all of that hardship and for what really. I regret it yet it brought us closer in a way and now I am in a great relationship with her so I guess it wasn't all that bad.
I still am unsure how she would take the idea of me not believing anymore though. I am glad that we have a good relationship with her family though, and since we got back together after our seperation I have always made a point of making sure that family should come first, even above religion. I think that is mainly what has made it work for us really well.
Before we got back together she told me that she didn't want to be second in my life. She asked that she be set before my faith, before G-d. At the time I was very upset she would ask something like that from me. How could I put my love for G-d behind anything? Anyone? Isn't loving G-d the most important thing?
It took me some time, but after our seperation I realized that she really was very important to me. She gave me purpose, pushed me to be better, and most of all was there for me, was really there for me. Not only that but I wanted to be there for her. I wanted her to be happy. I wanted her to be safe. I came to the conclusion that I really would put her before G-d and my faith.
I think that it is vital to put your family before your faith. Otherwise you will end up putting them through so much negativity for the sake of something that really isn't so important. I have known of a man who went off the derech and left his wife and children, totally abandoned them, and for what? I have the same amount of disdain for that person as I would for a person who rejected their own children for being gay or going off the derech or whatever.
People should really get their priorities straight and know that there are people out there who you really should dedicate your life to, and as a plus they actually exist.
Posted by Skeptitcher Rebbe at 1:25 PM
========================
12 comments:
Yossi said...
Interesting post. I have been dealing with faith issues of my own. I have been posting at the Richard Dawkins site. Many of the people there, including Dawkins, have suggested that I "come out" to my family, reagrdless of the cost to them. I have made it clear to those people that no matter what my "faith" I will not destroy my family just to make a philosophical point.
November 4, 2010 3:05 PM
no one said...
Very insightful post
November 4, 2010 3:13 PM
Skeptitcher Rebbe said...
I can definitely see your point. It is a very delicate issue and for many atheists outside of the frum community it is kind of hard for them to understand what it is really like going OTD in the frum community.
I wouldn't necessarily take their advice unless they were in a similar situation as you are in.
I like Dawkins a lot, but sometimes I think he may go just a tad overboard. I beleive that he thinks there is nothing good about hiding your atheism from certain people, and I think he has a point in that the atheistic community in order to gain strength needs more people coming out of the closet. But there are always options to weigh and everyones situation is different and those different circumstances need to be taken into consideration.
I would say take your time. It is a big life changing decision and there is no reason you should rush into anything.
I plan on taking my time.
November 4, 2010 3:19 PM
Skeptitcher Rebbe said...
no one,
Thanks, I am glad you enjoyed it.
November 4, 2010 3:21 PM
ki sarita said...
Many people do not leave their families voluntarily when they go OTD- they are forced out for just expressing their thoughts, rejected by the people who supposedly loved them, not the other way around.
November 7, 2010 11:47 PM
Skeptitcher Rebbe said...
Ki sarita,
Oh I agree 100%. I was just explaining one situation where this is not the case. For the most part I would say that OTDers are very good people, but there a few OTDers who I wouldn't mind giving a kick in the tuchos to.
November 8, 2010 1:35 AM
Anonymous said...
Skeptitcher and Ki sarita,
I have personally witnessed both tragedies and am aware of many cases in each category. It is never pleasant, but the best cases always involve the family being supportive of the OTDer, and the OTDer being supportive of the continued religiosity of the others. I have been blessed with a best friend, chevrusa, and a full support network who are all wonderful and understanding. We are respectful and accepting of each other. I still cook for them (I know kashrus better than most of my friends), and they still invite me for Shabbos. You are lucky to have such a wonderful wife, and I hope she will be as supportive as my friends have been. And maybe I'll be lucky enough to one day find someone as amazing as her to share my life with.
November 8, 2010 2:44 AM
Baal Habos said...
After much torment, I came out to my wife. It worked out better than in my wildest dreams. She was very understanding of what I had been going through, and after 3 or 4 years, without any pushing on my part, she came around totally to my way of thinking. All I did was expose to some of the literature I had been reading, science, philosophy, bibilical criticism, etc.
But I must caution you, we had a very good relationship to begin with (married more than 25 years). I don't think everyone has such a good outcome. Unfortunately, it's way too late to change course in life, with married frum children and all. Your mileage may vary and good luck.
November 13, 2010 6:42 PM
Anonymous said...
"el panav ashalem lo."
Agnostics, atheists, rejoice. You'll have your day in court. Good luck.
How odd of God to choose the Jews.
Those who aren't ffb have incentive to return to the womb, their milieu. For those whose beliefs are based upon group think, mindless frum people, da'as toireh etc. all should know better. To reject belief based upon biblical criticism is shoddy spirituality. We are more than the sum of our parts.
If you leave the community, nobody will be shocked. But, offering encouragement to others to follow your example is not righteousness, reb.
November 16, 2010 4:35 PM
Skeptitcher Rebbe said...
Anon,
Your comment is rather confusing. I don't know why you think you know me well enough to say that no one will be shocked if I left the community. I have a feeling that many people would be shocked. Also I have no intention of leaving at this stage of my life, and it is possible I never will. Although I notice problems in the community that isn't to say that there aren't similar or additional problems outside the community.
I don't push people to follow in my footsteps. These are my own personal opinions about my situation and what I experienced. I don't think anyone should follow in my footsteps or anyone elses for that matter, they should decide for themselves what life they wish to live, and if that means being religious then I fully support that. If it means leaving religion then I fully support that as well. Life is confusing and difficult and I am not about to tell others how they should deal with it in their own personal way.
Also I don't reject belief based on biblical criticism. Biblical criticism seems to make sense given the circumstances but I don't hold it up as evidence against belief in the Torah's divinity/truth.
November 16, 2010 8:50 PM
Anonymous said...
What say ye then, reb, to what Rashi cites on "im bechukotai telechu: "lo lamad, lo 'asah etc." Does this pattern conform to your own?
December 2, 2010 2:29 PM
Skeptitcher Rebbe said...
Of those seven things enumerated by Rashi I will tell you that this pattern didn't conform to my own.
1) [First, a person] does not learn [the Torah]
I did learn Torah and still do.
2) then, he [subsequently] does not fulfill [the commandments]
I did fulfill the commandments, and still do.
3) he then despises others who do [fulfill them]
I most definitely don't despise others who fulfill the commandments, many of my best and most trusted friends fulfill the commands, including my wife.
4) then, he hates the Sages,
Totally not true.
5) prevents others from fulfilling [the commandments]
Again, totally not true and I haven't prevented anyone from fulfilling the commandments.
6) denies the [authenticity of the] commandments
This is true.
7) and [finally] denies the very omnipotence of God.
This is also true.
This is not the path I have taken to denying the authenticity of the Torah and of Yiddishkeit.
The path I took was through continual study and reasoning to decide that I no longer believed in the precepts in the Torah and Yiddishkeit. I never hated Frum Jews, still don't, and I never wish to stop Frum Jews from doing mitzvahs, if anything I help promote it in my daily life. I still keep the mitzvahs and I still learn Torah daily.
I hope that answers your question.
December 2, 2010 3:52 PM
Thursday, November 4, 2010
Link
My wife is the best. I just can't get over how damn lucky I am to have her. I know that changing your worldview from frumkeit is hard and can be very depressing, but for me so far I have been able to handle it pretty well because of her.
She is still frum and doesn't yet know that my view points on Yiddishkeit and religion in general have changed so drastically, but when I speak to her about more OTD type topics she is always very understanding and insightful. She always thinks her views through and never falls back into some of the nonsensical arguments I hear from many frummies.
Not only that but many times she comes home with her own complaints and criticisms of Yiddishkeit. They are honest criticisms and although she tries to see it from anothers perspective, if it is ridiculous she points it out and isn't afraid to challenge it. She is intelligent, thoughtful, determined, caring, understanding, nurturing, dedicated and extremly beautiful.
I am reminded of a time earlier in my life while I was beginning to become frum. It came to the point where I desperately wanted to be seperated from her since she wasn't Jewish at the time and wasn't really interested in an Orthodox conversion. It was very hard for us, and I didn't want to deal with the stress of it, especially knowing I was sinning by dating a non Jew. We ended up breaking up for a couple of months before we got back together again. I just keep wondering what would have happened had I met and married another girl, maybe FFB or something. I couldn't imagine what a mistake that would have been.
I was such a moron for even putting her through all of that hardship and for what really. I regret it yet it brought us closer in a way and now I am in a great relationship with her so I guess it wasn't all that bad.
I still am unsure how she would take the idea of me not believing anymore though. I am glad that we have a good relationship with her family though, and since we got back together after our seperation I have always made a point of making sure that family should come first, even above religion. I think that is mainly what has made it work for us really well.
Before we got back together she told me that she didn't want to be second in my life. She asked that she be set before my faith, before G-d. At the time I was very upset she would ask something like that from me. How could I put my love for G-d behind anything? Anyone? Isn't loving G-d the most important thing?
It took me some time, but after our seperation I realized that she really was very important to me. She gave me purpose, pushed me to be better, and most of all was there for me, was really there for me. Not only that but I wanted to be there for her. I wanted her to be happy. I wanted her to be safe. I came to the conclusion that I really would put her before G-d and my faith.
I think that it is vital to put your family before your faith. Otherwise you will end up putting them through so much negativity for the sake of something that really isn't so important. I have known of a man who went off the derech and left his wife and children, totally abandoned them, and for what? I have the same amount of disdain for that person as I would for a person who rejected their own children for being gay or going off the derech or whatever.
People should really get their priorities straight and know that there are people out there who you really should dedicate your life to, and as a plus they actually exist.
Posted by Skeptitcher Rebbe at 1:25 PM
========================
12 comments:
Yossi said...
Interesting post. I have been dealing with faith issues of my own. I have been posting at the Richard Dawkins site. Many of the people there, including Dawkins, have suggested that I "come out" to my family, reagrdless of the cost to them. I have made it clear to those people that no matter what my "faith" I will not destroy my family just to make a philosophical point.
November 4, 2010 3:05 PM
no one said...
Very insightful post
November 4, 2010 3:13 PM
Skeptitcher Rebbe said...
I can definitely see your point. It is a very delicate issue and for many atheists outside of the frum community it is kind of hard for them to understand what it is really like going OTD in the frum community.
I wouldn't necessarily take their advice unless they were in a similar situation as you are in.
I like Dawkins a lot, but sometimes I think he may go just a tad overboard. I beleive that he thinks there is nothing good about hiding your atheism from certain people, and I think he has a point in that the atheistic community in order to gain strength needs more people coming out of the closet. But there are always options to weigh and everyones situation is different and those different circumstances need to be taken into consideration.
I would say take your time. It is a big life changing decision and there is no reason you should rush into anything.
I plan on taking my time.
November 4, 2010 3:19 PM
Skeptitcher Rebbe said...
no one,
Thanks, I am glad you enjoyed it.
November 4, 2010 3:21 PM
ki sarita said...
Many people do not leave their families voluntarily when they go OTD- they are forced out for just expressing their thoughts, rejected by the people who supposedly loved them, not the other way around.
November 7, 2010 11:47 PM
Skeptitcher Rebbe said...
Ki sarita,
Oh I agree 100%. I was just explaining one situation where this is not the case. For the most part I would say that OTDers are very good people, but there a few OTDers who I wouldn't mind giving a kick in the tuchos to.
November 8, 2010 1:35 AM
Anonymous said...
Skeptitcher and Ki sarita,
I have personally witnessed both tragedies and am aware of many cases in each category. It is never pleasant, but the best cases always involve the family being supportive of the OTDer, and the OTDer being supportive of the continued religiosity of the others. I have been blessed with a best friend, chevrusa, and a full support network who are all wonderful and understanding. We are respectful and accepting of each other. I still cook for them (I know kashrus better than most of my friends), and they still invite me for Shabbos. You are lucky to have such a wonderful wife, and I hope she will be as supportive as my friends have been. And maybe I'll be lucky enough to one day find someone as amazing as her to share my life with.
November 8, 2010 2:44 AM
Baal Habos said...
After much torment, I came out to my wife. It worked out better than in my wildest dreams. She was very understanding of what I had been going through, and after 3 or 4 years, without any pushing on my part, she came around totally to my way of thinking. All I did was expose to some of the literature I had been reading, science, philosophy, bibilical criticism, etc.
But I must caution you, we had a very good relationship to begin with (married more than 25 years). I don't think everyone has such a good outcome. Unfortunately, it's way too late to change course in life, with married frum children and all. Your mileage may vary and good luck.
November 13, 2010 6:42 PM
Anonymous said...
"el panav ashalem lo."
Agnostics, atheists, rejoice. You'll have your day in court. Good luck.
How odd of God to choose the Jews.
Those who aren't ffb have incentive to return to the womb, their milieu. For those whose beliefs are based upon group think, mindless frum people, da'as toireh etc. all should know better. To reject belief based upon biblical criticism is shoddy spirituality. We are more than the sum of our parts.
If you leave the community, nobody will be shocked. But, offering encouragement to others to follow your example is not righteousness, reb.
November 16, 2010 4:35 PM
Skeptitcher Rebbe said...
Anon,
Your comment is rather confusing. I don't know why you think you know me well enough to say that no one will be shocked if I left the community. I have a feeling that many people would be shocked. Also I have no intention of leaving at this stage of my life, and it is possible I never will. Although I notice problems in the community that isn't to say that there aren't similar or additional problems outside the community.
I don't push people to follow in my footsteps. These are my own personal opinions about my situation and what I experienced. I don't think anyone should follow in my footsteps or anyone elses for that matter, they should decide for themselves what life they wish to live, and if that means being religious then I fully support that. If it means leaving religion then I fully support that as well. Life is confusing and difficult and I am not about to tell others how they should deal with it in their own personal way.
Also I don't reject belief based on biblical criticism. Biblical criticism seems to make sense given the circumstances but I don't hold it up as evidence against belief in the Torah's divinity/truth.
November 16, 2010 8:50 PM
Anonymous said...
What say ye then, reb, to what Rashi cites on "im bechukotai telechu: "lo lamad, lo 'asah etc." Does this pattern conform to your own?
December 2, 2010 2:29 PM
Skeptitcher Rebbe said...
Of those seven things enumerated by Rashi I will tell you that this pattern didn't conform to my own.
1) [First, a person] does not learn [the Torah]
I did learn Torah and still do.
2) then, he [subsequently] does not fulfill [the commandments]
I did fulfill the commandments, and still do.
3) he then despises others who do [fulfill them]
I most definitely don't despise others who fulfill the commandments, many of my best and most trusted friends fulfill the commands, including my wife.
4) then, he hates the Sages,
Totally not true.
5) prevents others from fulfilling [the commandments]
Again, totally not true and I haven't prevented anyone from fulfilling the commandments.
6) denies the [authenticity of the] commandments
This is true.
7) and [finally] denies the very omnipotence of God.
This is also true.
This is not the path I have taken to denying the authenticity of the Torah and of Yiddishkeit.
The path I took was through continual study and reasoning to decide that I no longer believed in the precepts in the Torah and Yiddishkeit. I never hated Frum Jews, still don't, and I never wish to stop Frum Jews from doing mitzvahs, if anything I help promote it in my daily life. I still keep the mitzvahs and I still learn Torah daily.
I hope that answers your question.
December 2, 2010 3:52 PM
Series: "Uberchumradoxius" its Development and Causes Thereof
Originally posted on Divrei Acher
Tuesday, April 21, 2009
Last year (7,654 A.D.) I was at a conference and I became aware of a new area of research. The topic being researched is the phenomenon of a certain subspecies called Uberchumradoxius* which is now extinct, but has been of great interest lately in the scientific community. Two opposing camps with diametrically opposed views as to the development of Uberchumradoxius have risen in the scientific community.
One camp hypothesizes that the subspecies evolved naturally amongst the general population. They theorize that the earliest forms of Uberchumradoxius had just slight deviations from regular specimen. With time these were accentuated by natural selection and continued mutations, which were favored due to the peculiar environment that was the habitat of Uberchumradoxius.
The opposing camp ridicules this theory, pointing out the anti-natural nature of the subspecies, its hazardous tendencies towards itself and its habitat, behaviors that would absolutely preclude the selection of this subspecies even in very controlled environments. If natural selection was running its course, this latter camp claims, the first even slightly deviant specimen with tendencies resembling anything similar to Uberchumradoxius would probably not have survived into adulthood to procreate, and any offspring thereof would have certainly died in infancy. So destructive to its own survival are the behaviors of Uberchumradoxius. This is an accepted fact, and no one in the scientific community doubts the long-term repercussions to itself that the behavior of Uberchumradoxius ultimately poses.
The former camp maintains though, that in the short-term there were benefits to being a Uberchumradoxius as opposed to a normal specimen, given the peculiar environment of Uberchumradoxius. The latter camp disagrees with this vehemently, stating unequivocally that no benefits favored by natural selection can be found in the behaviors of Uberchumradoxius. So how does this camp account for the prolonged existence of Uberchumradoxius? They claim that the only possible cause could be something called "Intelligent Design". What they mean by this peculiar term is that some force with intelligence, favored the development of Uberchumradoxius. This force was able to steer Uberchumradoxius through the otherwise swift end it would have met at the hands of natural selection. The subspecies was able to produce viable offspring with even more accentuated traits that are the hallmark of Uberchumradoxius. As of yet, no satisfactory explanation has been given as to the nature and motives of this force. Speculations range from extraterrestrial experiments, to others who claim some type of long-term benefit for the general species, which learned to avoid tendencies exhibited by Uberchumradoxius because of its relatively quick demise. This camp admits that none of their speculations are sane, but they claim being forced into them by the absolute improbability of natural selection favoring Uberchumradoxius under any circumstances.
That's a synopsis of the scholarship on the topic to date.
Upcoming in the series:
Arguments pro and con presented by both sides, and snippets of conversation I overheard between proponents of the differing views at the conference.
*Origin: German Uber - above, more; Chumra is an obscure word from the now dead Aramaic, here a connotation of extreme; Latin doxius - a derivation from dox - belief, opinion
One camp hypothesizes that the subspecies evolved naturally amongst the general population. They theorize that the earliest forms of Uberchumradoxius had just slight deviations from regular specimen. With time these were accentuated by natural selection and continued mutations, which were favored due to the peculiar environment that was the habitat of Uberchumradoxius.
The opposing camp ridicules this theory, pointing out the anti-natural nature of the subspecies, its hazardous tendencies towards itself and its habitat, behaviors that would absolutely preclude the selection of this subspecies even in very controlled environments. If natural selection was running its course, this latter camp claims, the first even slightly deviant specimen with tendencies resembling anything similar to Uberchumradoxius would probably not have survived into adulthood to procreate, and any offspring thereof would have certainly died in infancy. So destructive to its own survival are the behaviors of Uberchumradoxius. This is an accepted fact, and no one in the scientific community doubts the long-term repercussions to itself that the behavior of Uberchumradoxius ultimately poses.
The former camp maintains though, that in the short-term there were benefits to being a Uberchumradoxius as opposed to a normal specimen, given the peculiar environment of Uberchumradoxius. The latter camp disagrees with this vehemently, stating unequivocally that no benefits favored by natural selection can be found in the behaviors of Uberchumradoxius. So how does this camp account for the prolonged existence of Uberchumradoxius? They claim that the only possible cause could be something called "Intelligent Design". What they mean by this peculiar term is that some force with intelligence, favored the development of Uberchumradoxius. This force was able to steer Uberchumradoxius through the otherwise swift end it would have met at the hands of natural selection. The subspecies was able to produce viable offspring with even more accentuated traits that are the hallmark of Uberchumradoxius. As of yet, no satisfactory explanation has been given as to the nature and motives of this force. Speculations range from extraterrestrial experiments, to others who claim some type of long-term benefit for the general species, which learned to avoid tendencies exhibited by Uberchumradoxius because of its relatively quick demise. This camp admits that none of their speculations are sane, but they claim being forced into them by the absolute improbability of natural selection favoring Uberchumradoxius under any circumstances.
That's a synopsis of the scholarship on the topic to date.
Upcoming in the series:
Arguments pro and con presented by both sides, and snippets of conversation I overheard between proponents of the differing views at the conference.
*Origin: German Uber - above, more; Chumra is an obscure word from the now dead Aramaic, here a connotation of extreme; Latin doxius - a derivation from dox - belief, opinion
6 comments:
A Pusheter Yid said...
You are ahead of the curve here.
Baal Habos said...
I have often wondered about this. How on earth have the Chareidim seemingly gained ascendance?
Possible answers
A) They're parasitic, dependent on the largesse of the non chareidim.
B) Natural selection takes some time. It's Malthus theory (limited resources) that triggered Darwin's thought processes. The S&^T is just beginning to hit the fan in the Chareidi world and we'll see some real change when the financial realities start forcing change in the Chareidi way of life.
Possible answers
A) They're parasitic, dependent on the largesse of the non chareidim.
B) Natural selection takes some time. It's Malthus theory (limited resources) that triggered Darwin's thought processes. The S&^T is just beginning to hit the fan in the Chareidi world and we'll see some real change when the financial realities start forcing change in the Chareidi way of life.
Acher said...
Ah BHB, so you're biased against the "Intelligent Design" proponents. You haven't even heard their arguments as to the utter impossibility of the natural evolvement of Uberchumradoxius.
But on a serious note you're right on both accounts. I think that they are parasitic, but the general community can only support sparse individuals of this kind, not a whole community. So it'll take its time like you say.
But on a serious note you're right on both accounts. I think that they are parasitic, but the general community can only support sparse individuals of this kind, not a whole community. So it'll take its time like you say.
Baal Habos said...
If it's ID, then obviously ID favors the Reform over Chareidim. ID also seems to favor the CHristians and the Muslims.
Joshua said...
Actually, the financial collapse seems to have hit the chareidi community badly. Some (especially in New York) were getting financing from less frum relatives who can no longer afford to support their relatives as much. The long-term effects of the current economic crisis may have substantial impacts on the chareidi community.
Acher said...
True, I'm aware of that. This post is mostly for a little Litzonus than anything else. The issue is quite obvious. I hope to continue on these series soon.
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