Originally posted on Baal Habos
20 JUNE 2006
http://baalhabos.blogspot.com/2006_06_01_archive.html
I once had a rebbi in Beis Medrash, who often stated that Kefira Material, anything that contradicts the Torah, is like a hole in the head. Get exposed to it, even accidentally, and you've damaged your brain with a tiny hole, spiritually speaking that is. Do it often enough and you've got hundreds of holes; effectively you're damaged goods. Not that the Torah is false (CH"VSH), just that you as an individual are no longer capable of resisting the falsehoods of the world.
I knew instantly that he was right. When I was a mere stripling of 12, I took out this interesting looking book from the library, "God is an astronaut". It tries to demonstrate thru various events in Tanach, that God, as we experienced him, was really an astronaut from another planet. For example, the desciption of the Chayos in the Maase Merkava could resemble a spacecraft. Layouts of the pyramid were really landmarks for alien aircraft. Ancient roads were landing strips for aircraft. The deaths of Nadav & Avihu Bhakrivam aish zara was due to electricity. That's how there were "burnt" without any external markings. There were hundreds of interesting tidbits like that, most of which I can't remember the details. It is considered a flawed work of pseudo science, but it makes for fascinating reading.
I felt this was gibberish, but it always left a slight impact on me that maybe what happened back in bibilical times was really the result of an encounter with a more sophisticated culture.
Later, personal encounters by me with real science and history was more than enought to leave me with serious doubt as to the accuracy of Torah Misinai as we know it.
This brings me to individuals like Lakewood Yid, Chardal and others who hang around GH blog. I just can't see how they can escape the Kefira holes that my Rebbi warned me of. I wish them lots of luck, cause they'll need it.
================================================================
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The back of the hill said...
Ah, the conflict between truth and fact.
It's all true. But none of it is factual.
June 20, 2006 2:03 PM
Baal Habos said...
Welcome back, BOTH.
> It's all true.
Yes, thats what the mean by Torah True Judaism.
June 20, 2006 2:21 PM
Avi said...
So what is the problem? They will have so many holes in their brain, that they will become holy. Isent that what they want? Avi
June 20, 2006 3:46 PM
Baal Habos said...
Avi, very cute! (and ain't that the whole truth).
June 20, 2006 5:27 PM
Moshe Kappoya said...
BH,
I've come to the same conclusion, which why I feel I must say goodbye.
Hatzlocha!
June 20, 2006 5:33 PM
Baal Habos said...
MK, if you're a maamin, then please do yourself a favor and stay away.
June 20, 2006 5:38 PM
Moshe Kappoya said...
BH,
My soul weeps for you.
A short personal anecdote if I may.
When in my teens, I rebelled against my religious upbringing and began to "slip away". Not long after, my uncle passed away on Yom Kippur. At the funeral another uncle told this story about the deceased.
During WWII when the Nazis ym"s occupied Hungary he decided to "hide" amongst the goyim there. Being a wealthy man, he was able to dress the part of a "gentleman" and move about the town freely. One day he met a shiksa that recognized him. She told him that if he did not marry her, she would report him to the Nazis. He refused and was deported to one of the camps. He survived and eventually came to NY.
After hearing this I thought to myself, here was a man who could have lived very comfortably, but instead choose to go through hell rather then betray his religion. And so too for the past 2000 years my ancestors have willingly submitted to torture and death to stay true to Hashem's Torah. And I was going to be the SOB to break the chain?!?
I will pray that you find your way back.
June 22, 2006 10:32 AM
Baal Habos said...
MK, Thanks.
My soul weeps for me as well. However, I'm not breaking any chains or Halacha. Except possibly belief. Nuch 120, if God takes me to task for that, I can't help that. I can only control my actions. The Gemara Said Lo uvdo Avoda Zara ella Lhatir Lahem aroyos. I haven't been matir any Arayos.
That being said, past ancestral or personal sacrifice is not reason to have emuna either. It may appeal to your emotions but it does not follow logically.
During early Christianity days, Christians were thrown to the lions by the Romans for being Christian. That doesn't prove the Christians are correct, right?
What was it in your teens that led you to rebel? Intellectual or Emotional reasons? I'm willing to bet it was emotional, i.e. friends, taava, bad teacher , etc.
That's very typical of teenagers and adults as well.
I think you are making emotional decisions, which is not necessarily bad. You'll certainly have a clear conscience as it relates to Yiddishkeit.
June 22, 2006 12:24 PM
Moshe Kappoya said...
However, I'm not breaking any chains or Halacha. Except possibly belief. Nuch 120, if God takes me to task for that, I can't help that. I can only control my actions.
I think you may not realize the severity of denying one of the 13 ikrim. And yes, we are expected to control our thoughts and desires. Remember "Lo Sachmod"?
As for myself, yes initially it was an emotional decision. But I can honsetly say that today I believe because it is obvious to me.
With faith, there are no questions; without faith, there are no answers.
Yisroel Meir Hakohen (1838-1933)
June 22, 2006 3:16 PM
Baal Habos said...
MK, Firstly the 13 Ikkarim are debatable. I even heard my Rav say it; he's a regular Chareidi Rav who is quite well known. There are other versions such as 7 Ikkarim or 3 Ikkarim or possibly even one Ikkar. These were promulgated by other Rishonim. It's just the Rambam's Ikkarim became well known. Secondly, a requirement to "believe" just makes no sense. What if you don't? You can't be forced to believe something if you don't.
If I tell you that you must believe the sky is green, you only believe it it you believe.
You can profess belief, but that doesn't mean you do.
I tried to pre-empt some of this in my comment to you before about Lo Uvdo Avoda Zara.
This is a famous kashia, how can one be forced to believe. In yeshiva we learned that really everyone believes but they fool themselves into not believing because they really don't want to believe in order to be Matir Arayos.
Well there are many who have lots of doubt and would wish that it were true, yet still are not Matir Arayos. etc.
> Remember "Lo Sachmod"?
Agreed, once you believe then controlling your desires and envies is do-able.
> With faith, there are no questions; without faith, there are no answers.
Possibly, but that doesn't mean the faith is true either. The same motto can be said of other religions.
Hmmmm. I would have hoped that I'd attract other people in by boat. I'm not looking to try to convince believers of anything. But I'll gladly defend my skepticism to anyone.
June 22, 2006 5:04 PM
Moshe Kappoya said...
FYI,
I think you'll find this interesting...
http://hassid.blogspot.com/2005/10/end.html
June 23, 2006 1:39 PM
Baal Habos said...
I read it and it does not do much for me. I really don't feel I need to do any teshuva for many reasons. At least not any more than your typical Baal Habos needs to do Teshuva.
An interesting point though is Mitoch Shlo Lshmuh. It does say about Torah, Meoros Shebah Machzirin Lmutav - As long as you're not learning Lekantair.
And I believe thats true, the more you learn the more "religious" you will be. That's no different than someone who reads science books all day, will become more intellectual.
There was a period when I recognized that I was learning exactly Lekantair. So for around 4 years I stopped learning. I'm over that now and I'm back to a daily dose of learning. At least it keeps me connected.
So tell me, how wacky is that for someone who pretty convinced about the non historicity of TMS ?
Good Shabbos.
June 23, 2006 4:20 PM
Pinchas Giller said...
The "kefirah holes" sounds close to R. Nachman Breslaver's famous "Torah of the Void" (Likkutei Moharan 64); the astronaut thing sounds like Erikh Von Danekin's "Chariots of the Gods."
This all must have filtered down to you wherever you were.
It seems that the frum world is very 2 dimensional and shies away from complexity or paradox in the objects of their belief.
You said:
"..serious doubt as to the accuracy of Torah MiSinai as we know it."
But maybe you knew it with insufficient subtlety.
June 27, 2006 1:18 AM
Baal Habos said...
Pinchas,
You are possibly correct about the book being Chariots of the Gods. When I wrote this post, I went looking searching for a book entitled God is an Astronaut and came up empty. But, thats the title as I remember "reading it" many years ago, so that's what I went with.
The other incident are verbatim words from a revered recently deceased Litvishe Maggid shiur.
I don't think R' Breslav or Von Daniken's neccesarilly had copyrights on their respective ideas.
No subtlety? That's funny.
Anyhow, what I find realy interesting, is that commenters often post on ancillary issues, somehow missing the point of the post. Maybe it's my writing. Or possibly, if I re-arrange your sentences, your'e disagreeing with the Kefira holes issue by saying that people should be able to live with the dichotomy of ideas. Well, I tell you that LY does not live with the dichotomy, because he simply rejects science and anything that threatens to conflict with with cocoon. Which is not bad. But one day, something may crack and he'll really be in deep doo-doo.
I'll post about subtlety in the future.
June 27, 2006 9:02 AM
PInchas Giller said...
No, all I meant was that Torah mi-Sinai may be more complex, in its reality, than the simplistic view. And, I apologize, when I said "you" I meant the 2nd person plural, as in Torah mi-Sinai as taught to the masses. I think that the idea is full of mysteries and paradoxes, myself.
And your writing is quite fine, it is my thought processes that are erratic.
There was a point, in the popular culture, when there was a theme that Aliens were going to come & bequeath humankind with knowledge. "Close encounters," "ET" it was even parodied by Woody Allen. Lately the aliens in movies all seem to be malevolent. It's a nastier decade.
June 27, 2006 8:23 PM
Baal Habos said...
Pinchas, no apologies necessary either way. Unfortunately my upbringing (chareidi-lite)does not really provide for a complex TMS. And true Chareidi has no leeway at all.
See any good movies lately? I can't even recall the last time we (the wife & I) went to a movie or even rented something. I settle for Seinfeld reruns and borrowed Sopranos. IMO, The early Sopranos were the best thing out on the tube. Ever.
June 27, 2006 11:12 PM
lakewoodyid said...
BHB,
Please explain:
Da Mah She'tashiv L'apikores.
June 28, 2006 11:48 PM
Anonymous said...
my intention was the first words not the last word
June 29, 2006 1:05 AM
Baal Habos said...
> Da Mah She'tashiv L'apikores.
LY, it certainly does not mean going surfing the web LOOKING for apikorsim.
You have strayed from your own characterization of your blogging as defending anti Chareidi posting. Now you're doing mundane postings about Flip Flops in shul. Your web charisma is carrying you away.
June 29, 2006 9:53 AM
Baal Habos said...
> Anonymous said...
my intention was the first words not the last word
Anon, sorry, I don't know who you are and what you're referring to.
June 29, 2006 9:56 AM
lakewoodyid said...
>LY, it certainly does not mean going surfing the web LOOKING for apikorsim.
You're avoiding my question. You said Kefirah make spiritual holes in the brain.
The Mishna says we should know what to answer. We can only answer if we read their position.
How could the Mishna allow it if it creates holes?
(Hint, see the mefarshim on the mishna in Avos perek 2)
June 29, 2006 12:21 PM
lakewoodyid said...
>> Anonymous said...
my intention was the first words not the last word
>Anon, sorry, I don't know who you are and what you're referring to.
Sorry about that one. Blogging from a treo is a pain.
I was simply trying to say that although I quoted the Mishna - "L'apikores", I was not refering that term on anyone.
June 29, 2006 12:23 PM
lakewoodyid said...
>Now you're doing mundane postings about Flip Flops in shul. Your web charisma is carrying you away.
I'm fully entitled to express my right wing views. As much as your entitled to express your doubts.
And standing before God "nisht koveh'dig" is not a mundane matter to me.
June 29, 2006 12:38 PM
Baal Habos said...
LY,
> How could the Mishna allow it if it creates holes?
That was not my Vort, it was from a very chushoov Maggid Shiur. I will try to research it the Inyun. I sincerely doubt it means actively engage in conversation with Apikorsim unless forced into it. It probably means Study Tanach and Gemora well so in case you get into the position where you are forced to confront an Apikores you will know how to respond.
Yes, you certainly are entitled to blog on what you wish, but I remember you saying your charter is to defend against anti-chared sentiment, right?
June 29, 2006 3:21 PM
lakewoodyid said...
>Yes, you certainly are entitled to blog on what you wish, but I remember you saying your charter is to defend against anti-chared sentiment, right?
Gotta sometimes take offence too.
June 29, 2006 5:30 PM
Baal Habos said...
> Gotta sometimes take offence too.
LY, as long as you don't
"take offence" :)
Good Shabbos.
June 29, 2006 11:42 PM
happywithhislot said...
BHB
Many people believe orthodoxy is the only way to preserve the jews.
I agree.
That doesnt mean that privately you cant have brain.
I think youre accomplishing both.
Youre saving orthodoxy, and saving your brain.
Double schar.
Hashem gave us sechel and rabboonim.
Those two are mutually exclusive a lot of the times.
I believe they are becuase when you make the leap to all faith, you have no sechel. Its not a bad thing. We need our standard bearers. Doesnt mean they arent smart or wise.
July 07, 2006 1:27 PM
Showing posts with label personal paths to skepticism. Show all posts
Showing posts with label personal paths to skepticism. Show all posts
Monday, November 28, 2011
Sunday, September 25, 2011
Pegs
Originally posted on David's Harp
FRIDAY, JANUARY 20, 2006
Link
I’ve been asked many times by my orthodox friends and family why I don’t believe in Torah M’shamayim (the divine origin of the bible). Sometimes the question is a challenge, sometimes it is negative and judgmental, and sometimes it is a sincere attempt to try to understand my decisions. I always feel that I would love to have some concise ‘zinger’ to offer – the ultimate ‘taiku’ - a problem so fundamental that it would convey with absolute certainty that my rejection of orthodoxy is firmly based on irrefutable logical and textual analysis.
As anyone who has studied Talmud will know, there can never be such an answer – or such a problem. We have created a mesorah that is so rich with explanations and analysis that every problem has at least one possible solution – and probably many more than one. Pointing out any one of the many issues which I have will immediately bring a rush or possible answers.
Instead, I usually explain to them that my problems with the Torah are the same as everyone else’s problems and questions. The only difference is that, to me, the world makes much more sense if you replace the many, many complicated answers with a single, simple thesis – that the Torah has problems because it was written by men, not by God.
Here is (yet) another excerpt from something that I wrote recently:
“There are many hundreds of problems and incongruities within the Torah. When you are thinking within the Orthodox system, all of these problems become points of departure for a deeper understanding of the Torah. All of them have solutions – some more elegant and some more forced. Many answers are quite difficult to reconcile – they are all square pegs in round holes - but each in itself can be rationalized.
It is only when you are ready to peak at the questions from a different perspective that you realize that with just a simple change in the fundamental assumptions, all of those pegs become round. All of a sudden, everything makes a lot more sense.
I can’t prove that men, not God, wrote the Torah. I am skeptical about the quality of the historical evidence which existed before the common era. And, I think that alternate arguments can be offered which reconcile these problems. But these are just more and more square pegs.”
============================================================================
Tamara said...
I appreciate this perspective, because my own journey has been the inverse of yours.
I started out thinking the Torah was written by people. When I started studying Torah with a wonderful Rabbi, I couldn't reconcile my belief that it was authored by human beings with the mystery I was encountering in those pages.
The Torah remains for me that way -mysterious and divine.
January 20, 2006 11:54 AM
dbs said...
tamara,
I think that there are so many factors which affect what will and will not resonate for each person. I was raised with a very intellectually focused perspective on Torah – with a premium placed on definition and clarity. Perhaps where you’re intellect ultimately leads you is (at least partly), dependent on what your heart was seeking. I’ve spent a lot of time pondering and observing the fascinating interplay of emotional and intellectual aspects of belief (and rejection of belief), and I hope to post some of my riffs soon. (Hopefully written more elegantly than my comment here.)
Thanks for writing.
January 21, 2006 1:16 AM
Me & My Yetzer said...
Like Tamara, I also am coming from the opposite direction.
I attended a two-week outreach program while in college. I recall a transitional moment: I was listening to the Rabbi explain something; I forgot exactly what it was, but his rationale made sense, though it was foreign to my way of thinking then.
I recall hearing myself say to my mind: I don't believe him, but I have to admit that his way of thinking has its own internal logic.
I had thought Torah, or Orthodoxy, was irrational or purely belief-based: I can hear Tevyeh of Fiddler on the Roof singing: "Tradition! Tradition! Tradition!"
But, now, as the Rabbi spoke, the internal logic of the Torah perspective seemed to consistent to me; it was a self-consistent worldview with its own perspectives, even if they were not all familiar to me. I was still not committed to observance, and wouldn't be for another month or two, but this was a transitional moment.
Let me add that, to me, self-consistent is not necessarily the same as airtight. My liberal education exposed me to a lot of different ways of thinking; each had their advantages and disadvantages. None seemed air-tight to me. (The book: "Godel, Escher, Bach" played heavily on my thinking in that regard.) I didn't necessarily think the Torah perspective was airtight; I may not even think that today, but for the first time I realized it was self-consistent. That was my revelation.
And to this day I still think it is: Self-consistent, even if only from a self-contained perspective.
January 21, 2006 7:19 PM
dbs said...
me,
I can well imagine how powerful is the experience of discovering that Judaism – assumed to be based on naïve and simplistic notions – is, in fact, a system of thought with virtually unlimited depth, breadth and sophistication. I should say, if it isn’t apparent, that I am not trying to convince anyone to change their beliefs (…a “chaas v’sholom seems in order).
Part of my point, (though not my main one), is that orthodoxy is inherently impervious to inconsistency. The tools of fixing problems are too well embedded into the system. A larger point is that the system may be coherent from within but absurd from a more “objective” standpoint. (That is to say – contradictory to history, science and nature.)
More to say about this in the future, but it is really not possible to completely separate sentiment from belief. Something in your life sent you to the outreach course – that part of the epiphany was happening long before the intellectual part. And so it was for me… in reverse.
January 21, 2006 9:36 PM
The Jewish Freak said...
DBS: I found your blog thru responding to jblogs, and I am glad I found it. Your writing style is quite good, and your struggle and humanity are well represented. Mostly, I am excited to have found a kindred spirit. I too, have left orthodoxy in middle age and have experienced all that comes along with that. I have found that the orthodox community hates nothing more (and has no greater fear) than a mature individual with a very strong Jewish and secular education going "off the path". Usually people become more religious and "spiritual" as they get older, and suddenly find great meaning and comfort in Orthodox Judaism. The orthodox community really loves to nurture these people, but I just see them as searching for false security and paying for it with their ability to reason. I find though, that I am much happier since making the change, although it is certainly not for everyone. I am raising my children orthodox (or at least my version of it) because of the benefits that I have reaped from my own orthodox background, and also not to confuse them too badly. Please continue to write, as you have a very interested reader.
Regarding this particular post, one of the insights that I had that cleared up a lot of confusion in the bible for me was once I started to view certain stories as explanations after the fact rather than as a real-time narrative. This becomes quite obvious once you change your perspective.
To me and my yetzer: I agree that orthodoxy has a wonderful self-consistency that I really do appreciate, however, you must first accept some very difficult premises in order to access that wonderful self-consistency.
January 22, 2006 10:26 PM
dbs said...
freak (if I may call you that),
Its quite a feeling to read a comment which is so close to home. I have much the same perception about the reaction of the community – I’m not sure how much I should say on the blog about it, but I’ll probably get around to relating some experiences and thoughts. Also, the children issue is one of endless complexity and difficulty – on many levels. I'm looking forward to more exchanges (who knows, there may be one or two others like us out there). Thank you.
January 23, 2006 12:20 AM
Me & My Yetzer said...
Let me state that I too struggle within the self-consistent system of Torah observant Judaism.
The objectivity that you, dbs, find in history and science lost their objectivity to me as I studied them in pursuit of advanced degrees; I began to see that they, despite their claims, are ultimately self-contained system, just starting from different assumptions. (A great secular book on the subject is "Godel, Escher, Bach.")
From my perspective, then, it became choosing between different self-consistent systems, neither of which was necessarily "objectively" provable.
And, freak, everyone accepts premises; read the above book to find out why. Perhaps the most dangerous premise to accept is that one doesn't have any premises.
Nevertheless, as I said, I still very much have my struggles within this lifestyle.
January 24, 2006 5:35 PM
dbs said...
Me,
The objectivity that you, dbs, find in history and science lost their objectivity to me as I studied them in pursuit of advanced degrees; I began to see that they, despite their claims, are ultimately self-contained system, just starting from different assumptions.
I basically agree that things which we accept as truth requires some “subjective” assumptions, which is why I used quotes for “objective”. That said, I still think that the acceptance of the orthodox system requires a huge amount of ongoing suspension of disbelief. If one person believes that water does not flow from rocks, and another believes that God performed a miracle which made that happen, they both are making assumptions, but I think that the first requires less mental gymnastics to rationalize. Again, you can pick any system, I just like the one which is more consistent with the rest of my experiences in life.
January 25, 2006 4:23 PM
e-kvetcher said...
So it seems like there are two groups of people here, and each one is gravitating towards something that they were lacking, while the other group is moving away from the same thing.
Fascinating.
February 01, 2006 1:01 PM
e-kvetcher said...
The Jewish Freak said:
I am raising my children orthodox (or at least my version of it) because of the benefits that I have reaped from my own orthodox background, and also not to confuse them too badly.
I'm very curious to learn about what you mean by this. Are you saying that you have secretly left orthodoxy, but are going through the motions for the sake of the kids? Are you openly "off the derech" but tell your kids they should be orthodox nonetheless? Or are you sending your kids through the system but explicitly telling them that they do not need to believe the tenets of Orthodoxy that they are learning?
February 01, 2006 4:55 PM
FRIDAY, JANUARY 20, 2006
Link
I’ve been asked many times by my orthodox friends and family why I don’t believe in Torah M’shamayim (the divine origin of the bible). Sometimes the question is a challenge, sometimes it is negative and judgmental, and sometimes it is a sincere attempt to try to understand my decisions. I always feel that I would love to have some concise ‘zinger’ to offer – the ultimate ‘taiku’ - a problem so fundamental that it would convey with absolute certainty that my rejection of orthodoxy is firmly based on irrefutable logical and textual analysis.
As anyone who has studied Talmud will know, there can never be such an answer – or such a problem. We have created a mesorah that is so rich with explanations and analysis that every problem has at least one possible solution – and probably many more than one. Pointing out any one of the many issues which I have will immediately bring a rush or possible answers.
Instead, I usually explain to them that my problems with the Torah are the same as everyone else’s problems and questions. The only difference is that, to me, the world makes much more sense if you replace the many, many complicated answers with a single, simple thesis – that the Torah has problems because it was written by men, not by God.
Here is (yet) another excerpt from something that I wrote recently:
“There are many hundreds of problems and incongruities within the Torah. When you are thinking within the Orthodox system, all of these problems become points of departure for a deeper understanding of the Torah. All of them have solutions – some more elegant and some more forced. Many answers are quite difficult to reconcile – they are all square pegs in round holes - but each in itself can be rationalized.
It is only when you are ready to peak at the questions from a different perspective that you realize that with just a simple change in the fundamental assumptions, all of those pegs become round. All of a sudden, everything makes a lot more sense.
I can’t prove that men, not God, wrote the Torah. I am skeptical about the quality of the historical evidence which existed before the common era. And, I think that alternate arguments can be offered which reconcile these problems. But these are just more and more square pegs.”
============================================================================
Tamara said...
I appreciate this perspective, because my own journey has been the inverse of yours.
I started out thinking the Torah was written by people. When I started studying Torah with a wonderful Rabbi, I couldn't reconcile my belief that it was authored by human beings with the mystery I was encountering in those pages.
The Torah remains for me that way -mysterious and divine.
January 20, 2006 11:54 AM
dbs said...
tamara,
I think that there are so many factors which affect what will and will not resonate for each person. I was raised with a very intellectually focused perspective on Torah – with a premium placed on definition and clarity. Perhaps where you’re intellect ultimately leads you is (at least partly), dependent on what your heart was seeking. I’ve spent a lot of time pondering and observing the fascinating interplay of emotional and intellectual aspects of belief (and rejection of belief), and I hope to post some of my riffs soon. (Hopefully written more elegantly than my comment here.)
Thanks for writing.
January 21, 2006 1:16 AM
Me & My Yetzer said...
Like Tamara, I also am coming from the opposite direction.
I attended a two-week outreach program while in college. I recall a transitional moment: I was listening to the Rabbi explain something; I forgot exactly what it was, but his rationale made sense, though it was foreign to my way of thinking then.
I recall hearing myself say to my mind: I don't believe him, but I have to admit that his way of thinking has its own internal logic.
I had thought Torah, or Orthodoxy, was irrational or purely belief-based: I can hear Tevyeh of Fiddler on the Roof singing: "Tradition! Tradition! Tradition!"
But, now, as the Rabbi spoke, the internal logic of the Torah perspective seemed to consistent to me; it was a self-consistent worldview with its own perspectives, even if they were not all familiar to me. I was still not committed to observance, and wouldn't be for another month or two, but this was a transitional moment.
Let me add that, to me, self-consistent is not necessarily the same as airtight. My liberal education exposed me to a lot of different ways of thinking; each had their advantages and disadvantages. None seemed air-tight to me. (The book: "Godel, Escher, Bach" played heavily on my thinking in that regard.) I didn't necessarily think the Torah perspective was airtight; I may not even think that today, but for the first time I realized it was self-consistent. That was my revelation.
And to this day I still think it is: Self-consistent, even if only from a self-contained perspective.
January 21, 2006 7:19 PM
dbs said...
me,
I can well imagine how powerful is the experience of discovering that Judaism – assumed to be based on naïve and simplistic notions – is, in fact, a system of thought with virtually unlimited depth, breadth and sophistication. I should say, if it isn’t apparent, that I am not trying to convince anyone to change their beliefs (…a “chaas v’sholom seems in order).
Part of my point, (though not my main one), is that orthodoxy is inherently impervious to inconsistency. The tools of fixing problems are too well embedded into the system. A larger point is that the system may be coherent from within but absurd from a more “objective” standpoint. (That is to say – contradictory to history, science and nature.)
More to say about this in the future, but it is really not possible to completely separate sentiment from belief. Something in your life sent you to the outreach course – that part of the epiphany was happening long before the intellectual part. And so it was for me… in reverse.
January 21, 2006 9:36 PM
The Jewish Freak said...
DBS: I found your blog thru responding to jblogs, and I am glad I found it. Your writing style is quite good, and your struggle and humanity are well represented. Mostly, I am excited to have found a kindred spirit. I too, have left orthodoxy in middle age and have experienced all that comes along with that. I have found that the orthodox community hates nothing more (and has no greater fear) than a mature individual with a very strong Jewish and secular education going "off the path". Usually people become more religious and "spiritual" as they get older, and suddenly find great meaning and comfort in Orthodox Judaism. The orthodox community really loves to nurture these people, but I just see them as searching for false security and paying for it with their ability to reason. I find though, that I am much happier since making the change, although it is certainly not for everyone. I am raising my children orthodox (or at least my version of it) because of the benefits that I have reaped from my own orthodox background, and also not to confuse them too badly. Please continue to write, as you have a very interested reader.
Regarding this particular post, one of the insights that I had that cleared up a lot of confusion in the bible for me was once I started to view certain stories as explanations after the fact rather than as a real-time narrative. This becomes quite obvious once you change your perspective.
To me and my yetzer: I agree that orthodoxy has a wonderful self-consistency that I really do appreciate, however, you must first accept some very difficult premises in order to access that wonderful self-consistency.
January 22, 2006 10:26 PM
dbs said...
freak (if I may call you that),
Its quite a feeling to read a comment which is so close to home. I have much the same perception about the reaction of the community – I’m not sure how much I should say on the blog about it, but I’ll probably get around to relating some experiences and thoughts. Also, the children issue is one of endless complexity and difficulty – on many levels. I'm looking forward to more exchanges (who knows, there may be one or two others like us out there). Thank you.
January 23, 2006 12:20 AM
Me & My Yetzer said...
Let me state that I too struggle within the self-consistent system of Torah observant Judaism.
The objectivity that you, dbs, find in history and science lost their objectivity to me as I studied them in pursuit of advanced degrees; I began to see that they, despite their claims, are ultimately self-contained system, just starting from different assumptions. (A great secular book on the subject is "Godel, Escher, Bach.")
From my perspective, then, it became choosing between different self-consistent systems, neither of which was necessarily "objectively" provable.
And, freak, everyone accepts premises; read the above book to find out why. Perhaps the most dangerous premise to accept is that one doesn't have any premises.
Nevertheless, as I said, I still very much have my struggles within this lifestyle.
January 24, 2006 5:35 PM
dbs said...
Me,
The objectivity that you, dbs, find in history and science lost their objectivity to me as I studied them in pursuit of advanced degrees; I began to see that they, despite their claims, are ultimately self-contained system, just starting from different assumptions.
I basically agree that things which we accept as truth requires some “subjective” assumptions, which is why I used quotes for “objective”. That said, I still think that the acceptance of the orthodox system requires a huge amount of ongoing suspension of disbelief. If one person believes that water does not flow from rocks, and another believes that God performed a miracle which made that happen, they both are making assumptions, but I think that the first requires less mental gymnastics to rationalize. Again, you can pick any system, I just like the one which is more consistent with the rest of my experiences in life.
January 25, 2006 4:23 PM
e-kvetcher said...
So it seems like there are two groups of people here, and each one is gravitating towards something that they were lacking, while the other group is moving away from the same thing.
Fascinating.
February 01, 2006 1:01 PM
e-kvetcher said...
The Jewish Freak said:
I am raising my children orthodox (or at least my version of it) because of the benefits that I have reaped from my own orthodox background, and also not to confuse them too badly.
I'm very curious to learn about what you mean by this. Are you saying that you have secretly left orthodoxy, but are going through the motions for the sake of the kids? Are you openly "off the derech" but tell your kids they should be orthodox nonetheless? Or are you sending your kids through the system but explicitly telling them that they do not need to believe the tenets of Orthodoxy that they are learning?
February 01, 2006 4:55 PM
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