Originally posted on Baal Habos
21 MARCH 2009
Link
Last week, a comment in a Letter to The Editor in the Jewish Press caught my eye. I doubt that comment would have passed muster (not Mustard!) in the Yaated Neeman. Check out the last Letter on the bottom entitled "Hearing Vs. Discerning".
It seems that Dr. Yaakov Stern goes out of his way to make this astonishing admission:
“While we may not like to admit this, even to ourselves, the reality is that everyone to some degree is plagued by doubt as to the veracity of the Torah and the omnipotence of Hashem...........”
Now, that's quite a shocker. Until my skeptic years, I really can't say that I was consciously aware of such feelings. Sure, I may have had some issues with some Chazals and some Gemaras. But that's not quite the same as doubting the veracity of the Torah. I may even have had some questions about the Torah, but to claim everyone is plagued by doubt seems to speak more to Dr. Stern's frame of mind.
[So please tell us Dr. Stern, what exactly about the Torah do you doubt? Maybe I can help out out there? Yuk Yuk.]
And if you DO doubt it and if everyone doubts it, why is it so terrible to ask questions in public? If doubt is normal, then maybe there's a good reason for it! If doubt is commonplace, isn't it more than expected that some will act on their doubt? Why is it a given, in polite company, that Toras Hashem Temima?
But the truth is that Dr. Stern is at least partially correct. Many people might have moderate levels of doubt. The numerous "train the teacher" Kiruv programs might be be nothing more than an excuse to allow the FFB adult to explore the forbidden in a controlled environment. When Rabbonim tell people about these programs in public, they often say as an unplanned afterthought, "and it will help your own Emunah". Books like Permission to Believe and Permission to Receive are not just meant for the borderline BT. I think it's on the Bookshelf of many Maaminim Bnei Maaminim.
Yet, for all the doubt that does exist, it's still verboten to express your doubts in public. Honest questions of basic belief are not tolerated. Just try it. Just try the vaguest hint of questioning even today's rabbonim, let alone Chazal, and you'll get comments such as "you need to work on yourself" or "That's dangerous" or "I believe such and such because I believe in God". As if their Rav has Gilui Eliyahu.
You'll get odd looks and many types of statements either putting you in your place or cavalierly dismissing the hint of questioning. You'll get any statement other than an open admission that there's a good reason to doubt or that it's OK to doubt.
So my skeptic friend. Just nod your head at the assertion that there will be a Mechitsa in Olam Haboh when listening to Hashem's Shiurim (yes, that was a statement from an Adam Godol). Just keep your mouth shut.
Why?
Because an elephant in the room is easier ignored than a buzzing bee.
posted by Baal Habos @ 3/21/2009
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offthederech
Great post. and they wonder why I call it a cult...
Sunday, March 22, 2009, 12:58:04 AM
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Mark
>Because an elephant in the room is easier ignored than a buzzing bee.
The problem is, these days the Gedolim are becoming more and more like buzzing elephants.
I think you're a better judge on what a Frum person really believes and how much he doubts. You were a believer as an adult, while I started loosing it as I came into my own. Although I will say that when I was really FarFrumt, I not only believed, I thought I can prove God through Moreh Nvuchim etc.
But I even have a hard time believing many Frum people are in a state of mind that I was before my official skepticism, where I had dubts but wouldn't allow myself to "go there". That's already too much. So maybe this Stern himself is Abiselh you know, not all the way were he 'should' be.
Sunday, March 22, 2009, 1:02:36 AM
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Baal Habos
OTD, Thanks!
> So maybe this Stern himself is Abiselh you know, not all the way were he 'should' be.
Yes, that's why I said "astonishing admission". No way this would make it into a more right wing paper.
Sunday, March 22, 2009, 1:18:26 AM
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kollel wife
Well said. We, grown men and women, are expected to act as if that which is uppermost in our minds doesn't even exist. What a horrific sham our lives have become.
Sunday, March 22, 2009, 1:42:06 AM
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Baal Habos
>We, grown men and women
Kolel Wife,we could use a few good women on this blog. But I'm not sure I want to have real Kolel Wives reading my blog, unless you're a real skeptic. Are you pulling some kind of letzanus?
Sunday, March 22, 2009, 1:52:28 AM
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Pen Tivokeish
Re your poll "For believers only", I yell discrimination BHB. You need to create another poll with similar questions for the كفّار kuffār
Sunday, March 22, 2009, 8:48:10 AM
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XGH
Actually I think this makes sense. There's lots of things that go on in society, but people make a conscious decision not to have it all 'out in the open', to at least maintain appearances. Many examples, including marriages, adultry other issues etc etc etc. Society requires a certain facade.
Sunday, March 22, 2009, 10:59:21 AM
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Anon
>Because an elephant in the room is easier ignored than a buzzing bee.
That is exactly why you bloggers are in business.
Sunday, March 22, 2009, 12:12:15 PM
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Baal Habos
> Actually I think this makes sense
Sure, everything I write makes sense!
Sunday, March 22, 2009, 12:21:18 PM
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JS
I've long noted--with considerable dismay at his inxplicable knack for getting said rants published in the JP---Dr. Stern's entries in the Letters section of the Jewish Press. For what it's worth, they exhibit a very consistent and defined, if obnoxious, worldview: basically all examples of independent thought he disses & dismisses as "gedolim-bashing". He's also a fan of that time-honored device of "I'm not criticizing---I, too am guilty of the above"---which tends to come across about as sincere as "nisht oif Shabbos geredt, but what stocks are you pushing this month?" or "no offense, but that haircut makes you look like a baboon."
Sunday, March 22, 2009, 3:05:42 PM
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MK
There is a big difference between "questioning" and "skepticism", and even more so questioning a modern day Rabbi and questioning Moshe Rabbeinu.
Not sure what Stern had in mind, however IMHO, asking questions is good, I've questioned everything (almost). The problem is where you you look for answers. Hint - the internet is the wrong place.
Monday, March 23, 2009, 5:38:17 PM
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happywithhislot
What's wrong with questioning moshe rabennu.
No other field do they kill u for questioning a historical figure.
Imagine getting stoned for questioning wether einstein was right. Imagine where science would be if it didn't.
Monday, March 23, 2009, 8:50:29 PM
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Showing posts with label skepticism. Show all posts
Showing posts with label skepticism. Show all posts
Tuesday, November 29, 2011
Monday, November 28, 2011
You Skeptics think you're so smart!
Originally posted on Baal Habos
08 MARCH 2009
http://baalhabos.blogspot.com/2009_03_01_archive.html
Or some other variant thereof.
Such as "And you know better than all the Gedolim??!"
Rabbi Gil Student states here
You think you're the smartest and most unbiased person on the planet. That may or may not be so, but I'm not going to set aside my judgment for yours.
It happens to be that I did grow thinking I was smart. After all I overheard my mother telling a friend, "My little BHB must be brilliant, he got a 95 on his IQ Test!"
Well, as it turns out for once the believers got it right. The Gedolim are way smarter than us skeptics.
Michael Shermer tells us about Planck's Problem, after physicist Max Planck, who made this observation on what must happen for innovation to occur in science: "
An important scientific innovation rarely makes its way by gradually winning over and converting its opponents: it rarely happens that Saul becomes Paul. What does happen is that its opponents gradually die out and that the growing generation is familiarized with the idea from the beginning"
And he states further :
Psychologist David Perkins conducted an interesting correlational study in which he found a strong positive correlation between intelligence (measured by a standard IQ test) and the ability to give reasons for taking a point of view and defending that position; he also found a strong negative correlation between intelligence and the ability to consider other alternatives. That is, the higher the IQ, the greater the potential for ideological immunity. Ideological immunity is built into the scientific enterprise, where it functions as a filter against potentially overwhelming novelty."
It seems it's the smart ones who are able to cook up all sorts of tangled and intricate answers to defend their existing positions. It's the smart ones who are able to create Toras Lukshin to avoid confronting new truths
So, Rabboisai, there you have it. I agree, I'm NOT so smart after all.
A freilichen Purim.
08 MARCH 2009
http://baalhabos.blogspot.com/2009_03_01_archive.html
Or some other variant thereof.
Such as "And you know better than all the Gedolim??!"
Rabbi Gil Student states here
You think you're the smartest and most unbiased person on the planet. That may or may not be so, but I'm not going to set aside my judgment for yours.
It happens to be that I did grow thinking I was smart. After all I overheard my mother telling a friend, "My little BHB must be brilliant, he got a 95 on his IQ Test!"
Well, as it turns out for once the believers got it right. The Gedolim are way smarter than us skeptics.
Michael Shermer tells us about Planck's Problem, after physicist Max Planck, who made this observation on what must happen for innovation to occur in science: "
An important scientific innovation rarely makes its way by gradually winning over and converting its opponents: it rarely happens that Saul becomes Paul. What does happen is that its opponents gradually die out and that the growing generation is familiarized with the idea from the beginning"
And he states further :
Psychologist David Perkins conducted an interesting correlational study in which he found a strong positive correlation between intelligence (measured by a standard IQ test) and the ability to give reasons for taking a point of view and defending that position; he also found a strong negative correlation between intelligence and the ability to consider other alternatives. That is, the higher the IQ, the greater the potential for ideological immunity. Ideological immunity is built into the scientific enterprise, where it functions as a filter against potentially overwhelming novelty."
It seems it's the smart ones who are able to cook up all sorts of tangled and intricate answers to defend their existing positions. It's the smart ones who are able to create Toras Lukshin to avoid confronting new truths
So, Rabboisai, there you have it. I agree, I'm NOT so smart after all.
A freilichen Purim.
Thursday, October 6, 2011
Produce
Originally posted on Baal Habos
28 March 2009
It just came to me suddenly as I was contemplating the produce section in my local supermarket.
How did Rabbinic Judaism, ever get off the ground on the first place?
Imagine, if you will. Chaim Yankel comes home from the First Congregation Anshe Yavneh Shul around 10:30 Shabbos morning in the year 101 AD.
"Shprintze, I'm home.."
"You're so late!"
"Well," he said, "we had a new Rav in shul today, and he made us repeat the shmoneh Esrai"
"You're kidding. What for?"
"He called it chazoras Hashatz".
"Hmmm", she says as she re-arranges the table.
"You can't do that"
"Why not?"
"That's Muktzeh!"
"What's that?"
"Err, never mind..."
She rushes to kiss him.
"Stop!"
"What's the matter?"
"You're a Niddah!"
What?
"You're a Niddah."
"No I'm not. I'm a Zavah."
"Not anymore you ain't. And we now have Harchakos."
"You're so late!"
"Well," he said, "we had a new Rav in shul today, and he made us repeat the shmoneh Esrai"
"You're kidding. What for?"
"He called it chazoras Hashatz".
"Hmmm", she says as she re-arranges the table.
"You can't do that"
"Why not?"
"That's Muktzeh!"
"What's that?"
"Err, never mind..."
She rushes to kiss him.
"Stop!"
"What's the matter?"
"You're a Niddah!"
What?
"You're a Niddah."
"No I'm not. I'm a Zavah."
"Not anymore you ain't. And we now have Harchakos."
The next day, Chaim Yankel, whose kids were all married off, found himself signing up at the "Second Congregation Anshe Yavneh".
The Reish Gelusah is not getting to first base with his mispalelim, no matter what kind of believers they are. It's my experience that even the believers are skeptics to new concepts, gezeiros, etc.
But! The Resh Gelusa will have success in introducing this "stuff" to the kinderlach in yeshiva.
It is the kinderlach who look at the bowl of fruit and refuse to eat the strawberries.
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Apikores
It's true, they get you by using the kids. My sister came home from cheder one day and said we have to start keeping cholov yisroel, and I never saw an oreo again.
It's true, they get you by using the kids. My sister came home from cheder one day and said we have to start keeping cholov yisroel, and I never saw an oreo again.
Sunday, March 29, 2009, 1:27:42 AM
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Culture and dogma evolve in small incremental steps. I bet your zeideh didn't eat the kezeisim matzoh in two minutes "betoch kedi achilas prass".
Halachic Judaism of old, must have been radically different to what it is today. Chazal clearly redefined the fundamentals within Halacha, often due to the restrictions imposed upon them by their rulers. The way we deal with converts as a consequence of the ban by Constantine preventing the Jews from proselytising shows this. (The need for a ban seems to indicate that we used to proselytise.) As does the Talmud's attempt to render almost meaningless any biblical command for capital punishment. The practice was common in Biblical times, and later.
However it seems that they did away with the theoretical death penalty, because they had lost jurisdiction over it, when the Romans took over, hundreds of years before.
Subsequently, after Chazal, the reformation process became less bold, and has turned into a process of refinery rather than reform. Each generation by asking new questions, pin pointing the contradictions within law, and issuing new revised rulings based upon the new answers and distinctions. This coupled with, the codification process, the organisation of the chaotic quagmire of Talmudic law , into a code of law, a process set in motion by the Geonim as early as 1200 years ago, is how the evolution of Jewish Law has been progressing steadily.
However, the challenges any budding Rabbi, a millennia ago would have faced in his quest to become a true scholar, would have been monumental prior to the printing press. The refinement of Halacha was at first, a painfully slow process. Come along the printing press, that process was vastly accelerated. Then even more so by mass literacy, and the postal system.
Sunday, March 29, 2009, 9:44:41 AM
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>It is the kinderlach who look at the bowl of fruit and refuse to eat the strawberries.
How true that is, it's also true of adults who are like Kinderlach.
As for your poll, I didn't vote on it because you didn't give a choice with a high enough percentage. Not that I really think that it is higher than 3%, but I think it's definitely a possibility.
Sunday, March 29, 2009, 9:57:15 AM
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It's not just kosher... any system that is interested in keeping the body pure goes from chumrah to chumrah. I have been talking to people who practice Chinese medicine and you won't believe what they think is dangerous. If you say you microwave they give you a look like " why even bother living if you are such an idiot." Meat they hold to be worse than smoking. Microwaving frozen chulent wrapped in plastic...you might as well eat cardboard...in fact cardboard is considered much healthier.
Sunday, March 29, 2009, 1:30:04 PM
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>Subsequently, after Chazal, the reformation process became less bold, and has turned into a process of refinery rather than reform.
I think my point is a valid one. Other than Baalei Tshuvah, I can't envision how even people of strong faith were mekabel upon themselves such innovations as Harchakos or Muktsa. It's not even like Strawberries or Internet accces. I can see a ban on that taking place under the guise that our forbears would have done the same had the Internet sprung up 1,000 years ago or that bugs were supposedly around 1,000 years ago. But imagine your Rav comes home and says from now on, as a Gezeira, Photography is prohibited. How would that take root? Only in the new generation.
Sunday, March 29, 2009, 2:18:05 PM
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"How did Rabbinic Judaism, ever get off the ground on the first place?
"
Slowly. Though adults will go along with an awful lot of things if an authority tells them to. There are many people who now don't eat strawberries. Or who filter their water. In a hundred years strawberries will be trief. In a thousand kosher water will be sold all over the world, and the only ones who will remember it started in New York with a few zealots will be theological historians and those on the fringes of frumkeit. These skeptics will be told that those who held tapwater was kosher were minority opinion, or that what they said is being misinterpreted. After all, who do they think they are, suggesting that an achron could be mistaken?
Sunday, March 29, 2009, 2:39:33 PM
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G*3, yes, my comment at 3:23 today. Strawberries are different.
Sunday, March 29, 2009, 2:50:39 PM
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I see your point. I'm not so sure, though, that people would reject even a large change. The trick would be to couch it in familiar terms. Take your photography example. It could be argued that displaying pictures of women is untznius. (Note the absence of pictures of women from the Yated, or the incident with the shietel store last year.) If it is innapropriate to display these pictures, it may be inaproptiate to take the pictures because they might be seen. in a few decades taking pictures of women is assur.
Now, if one cannot take pictures of women, what about young girls? Best to be machmir and avoid that. The jump to assuring photographs of men is a bit harder, but tznius in theory applies to men as much as women, and once it is established that, for women, allowing someone to take your picture is untznius, a man who is very careful with halacha will also not allow his picture to be taken. This will eventually spread to the general population, and in a few centuries it will be forgotten that frum Jews ever allowed their picture to be taken.
Paintings and engravings of frum events made in the 17th and 18th centuries often show womens' elbows and collarbones. Many even show cleavage. Most frum people are unaware of this, and if they come across such pictures assume that these people were on the fringes of frum society.
Sunday, March 29, 2009, 4:46:23 PM
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> in a few decades taking pictures of women is assur.
Right, it's a generational thing.
Sunday, March 29, 2009, 11:44:44 PM
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> in a few decades taking pictures of women is assur.
It's already frowned upon judging by the famous picture of the Chofetz Chaim's family were the two women were digitally removed.
Monday, March 30, 2009, 12:11:30 AM
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"The Reish Gelusah is not getting to first base with his mispalelim, no matter what kind of believers they are."
I don't think many new rules were announced one day out of the blue. Rather, most of them probably evolved over time (and space), in different communities and under different conditions. By the time the rule was officially adopted most people were familiar with it and some even might have kept it for generations prior.
(That is not the way it would necessarily be written centuries later when it was officially recorded in written form: So-and-so decreed this is Muktzah. But I think it likely that most religious concepts evolved and were not abruptly introduced by an authority figure.)
Monday, March 30, 2009, 11:26:01 AM
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David Kraemer delivered a lecture at the JTS last year on "Jewish Eating and Jewish Identity". He argued that a lot of these chumras evolved over time, and their effect --- if not their explicit purposes --- was not only to separate Jews from non-Jews, but also Jews from other Jews. That is, when there is an ideological division in the Jewish community, one group imposes additional restrictions on food, and that serves as a boundary between "us" and "them".
I believe he also has a book out on the same topic.
I can't evaluate the historical argument, but it seems to make sense at least in some cases.
Monday, March 30, 2009, 12:48:57 PM
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Monday, March 30, 2009, 12:49:42 PM
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Here is an old post of mine talking about a theory by R' Elman for the niddah stringencies.
>Many even show cleavage.
Yes, whether in times of boom or... bust
Monday, March 30, 2009, 5:33:59 PM
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Letz, come on you can do better than that.
>I don't think many new rules were announced one day out of the blue...
It's difficult to envision someone accepting upon himself Harchkos or Muktsah if he did not believe it was an old established custom.
> He argued that a lot of these chumras evolved over time
Ditto to above.
> That is, when there is an ideological division in the Jewish community, one group imposes additional restrictions on food, and that serves as a boundary between "us" and "them".
I find that fascinating!
> Here's a link to a podcast of his lecture:
I'll try to check that out.
> Here is an old post of mine talking about a theory by R' Elman for the niddah stringencies.
I remember that. Doesn't contradict what I'm saying.
Monday, March 30, 2009, 7:36:32 PM
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I don't believe it ever "got off the ground." It is something complex that happened way before what we call "chazal." I believe Halivni has it right when he says by the time the Jews returned from Persia there was already a need for "interpretation" in order for them to actually keep the law. This in affect is what laid the foundation for what we call "rabbinic judaism"
Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 1:33:04 PM
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> Right, it's a generational thing.
Okay, you're right, it definitly takes a few generations for this kind of thing to take hold. My point was more that it isn't only the children who buy into these things, but the adults too. Its just that an adult will only move to the right so much. A child takes his parents' practices as the baseline, and as an adult will move a little more to the right. His child will then take those practices as a baseline, and then move a little...
So basicly you're right, but the adults are definitly buying into the chumras.
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